The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

A place to discuss the issues relating to the proposed change in the national CTC’s structure.
Edwards
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby Edwards » 2 Dec 2010, 2:48pm

Jonty my post was meant to be tongue in cheek. If you give your vote to the side for the motion, why would you expect them to vote against. This also works the other way round. I have got the impression that some people were surprised by the chairman casting votes for the proposal.

The coat is a nice distraction and the conspiracy theory makes it even more so. Thanks for the smile. Just out of interest what size is it.
Keith Edwards
I do not care about spelling and grammar

irc
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby irc » 2 Dec 2010, 2:49pm

Jonty wrote:Do you really think that the CTC would risk only giving the prizes to members who voted Yes and thereby exposing themselves to riducle and possibly legal action if they were found out which would be highly likely?
jonty


I doubt it. But then I wouldn't have thought the BBC would run a phone in competition then choose a child from the studio audience to pose as the "winner."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 051044.ece

I wouldn't have thought any UK govt would bring in a postal voting system so open to fraud that a high court judge said it would disgrace a banana republic.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4410743.stm

If any voter (with obvious exceptions for armed forces overseas, disabled etc) can't be bothered to go to their local polling place then they do not deserve a vote. Likewise any CTC member that is only voting because of the chance to win a prize doesn't deserve a vote. So why offer the prize?
Last edited by irc on 2 Dec 2010, 4:04pm, edited 1 time in total.
No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?

The Mechanic
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby The Mechanic » 2 Dec 2010, 3:21pm

OK, I will vote yes but only if I get the coat first. :lol:
Cancer changes your outlook on life. Change yours before it changes you.

Jonty

Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby Jonty » 2 Dec 2010, 3:26pm

irc wrote:
Jonty wrote:Do you really think that the CTC would risk only giving the prizes to members who voted Yes and thereby exposing themselves to riducle and possibly legal action if they were found out which would be highly likely?
jonty


I doubt it. But then I wouldn't have thought the BBC would run a phone in competition then choose a child from the studio audience to pose as the "winner."

Can you really compare a low-budget crummy television programme to the CTC? Also voting arrangements for corporate entities are set out in law. I don't think this applied to television programmes.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 051044.ece

I wouldn't have thought any UK govt would bring in a postal voting system so open to fraud that a high court judge said it would disgrace a banana republic.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4410743.stm

Undoubtedly certain aspects of voting at the General Election is a matter of concern for the Authorities. As I understand it one of the issues was some Asian men filling in ballot papers on behalf of their wives. However if you are concerned about the robustness of the CTC's voting procedures why engage in speculation? Surely it's more sensible to post a question asking the CTC what measures they have in place to ensure that the voting arrangements are robust? The CTC is required by law to ensure that it's voting systems are robust and it will have the services of a legal officer. Surely it's more sensible to get informed on issues on which you may know little rather than engaging in idle and potentially misleading speculation?

If any voter (with obvious exceptions for armed forces overseas, disabled etc) who can't be bothered to go to their local polling place does not deserve a vote. Likewise any CTC member that is only voting because of the chance to win a prize doesn't deserve a vote. So why offer the prize?


What's wrong with offering a few modest prizes to encourage more members to vote? One can still has the option to vote for and or against the motion. Unless you believe of course that the CTC has entered in a conspiracy to only pick the winning names from those who vote Yes. Would your concerns be addressed if the CTC said that all "winners" will have to donate their "winnings" to charity.
jonty

Jonty

Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby Jonty » 2 Dec 2010, 3:30pm

Edwards wrote:Jonty my post was meant to be tongue in cheek. If you give your vote to the side for the motion, why would you expect them to vote against. This also works the other way round. I have got the impression that some people were surprised by the chairman casting votes for the proposal.

The coat is a nice distraction and the conspiracy theory makes it even more so. Thanks for the smile. Just out of interest what size is it.



The coat or the smile? :wink:
jonty

Jonty

Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby Jonty » 2 Dec 2010, 3:33pm

The Mechanic wrote:OK, I will vote yes but only if I get the coat first. :lol:


If you get the coat before me I'll definitely vote NO. :wink:
jonty

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Yorkshireman
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby Yorkshireman » 2 Dec 2010, 3:39pm

I don't want a coat (I already have one <- :wink: ). Should I ask for my ballot paper to be returned? :lol:
Colin N.
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Jonty

Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby Jonty » 2 Dec 2010, 4:14pm

Yorkshireman wrote:I don't want a coat (I already have one <- :wink: ). Should I ask for my ballot paper to be returned? :lol:


No, give it to Merc. Then he and his daughter can both have one. :wink:
jonty

irc
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby irc » 2 Dec 2010, 4:19pm

Jonty wrote:
irc wrote:
Jonty wrote:Do you really think that the CTC would risk only giving the prizes to members who voted Yes and thereby exposing themselves to riducle and possibly legal action if they were found out which would be highly likely?
jonty


I doubt it. But then I wouldn't have thought the BBC would run a phone in competition then choose a child from the studio audience to pose as the "winner."

Can you really compare a low-budget crummy television programme to the CTC? Also voting arrangements for corporate entities are set out in law. I don't think this applied to television programmes.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 051044.ece

I wouldn't have thought any UK govt would bring in a postal voting system so open to fraud that a high court judge said it would disgrace a banana republic.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4410743.stm

Undoubtedly certain aspects of voting at the General Election is a matter of concern for the Authorities. As I understand it one of the issues was some Asian men filling in ballot papers on behalf of their wives. However if you are concerned about the robustness of the CTC's voting procedures why engage in speculation? Surely it's more sensible to post a question asking the CTC what measures they have in place to ensure that the voting arrangements are robust? The CTC is required by law to ensure that it's voting systems are robust and it will have the services of a legal officer. Surely it's more sensible to get informed on issues on which you may know little rather than engaging in idle and potentially misleading speculation?

If any voter (with obvious exceptions for armed forces overseas, disabled etc) who can't be bothered to go to their local polling place does not deserve a vote. Likewise any CTC member that is only voting because of the chance to win a prize doesn't deserve a vote. So why offer the prize?


What's wrong with offering a few modest prizes to encourage more members to vote? One can still has the option to vote for and or against the motion. Unless you believe of course that the CTC has entered in a conspiracy to only pick the winning names from those who vote Yes. Would your concerns be addressed if the CTC said that all "winners" will have to donate their "winnings" to charity.
jonty


Because I would rather people voted (in any election) because they were interested in the outcome and had studied both sides of the arguement
No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?

Edwards
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Location: Birmingham

Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby Edwards » 2 Dec 2010, 4:53pm

irc wrote:Because I would rather people voted (in any election) because they were interested in the outcome and had studied both sides of the arguement


Now that is a novel idea but where do they get the real information from nowadays. Was it not JFK that started the looks and spin not substance politics.

Is it reasonable to assume the majority of CTC members do not really care about this enough to be bothered to vote last time. The only thing that might change there minds this time is the coat. I do not think most people will read up on the subject (same as last time) but they will give the answer that they think gives them the best chance of a coat.

So to get them on your side you need them to believe voting for your cause gives them a better chance of winning.

What colour and style is the coat just so I know if it worth entering? :wink:
Keith Edwards
I do not care about spelling and grammar

Jonty

Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby Jonty » 2 Dec 2010, 4:56pm

Hi Irc
I agree with you. I'd prefer people to vote who were interested and knowledgeable and had looked at both sides of the argument. But surely offering a few modest prizes doesn't compromise this? One an still vote Yes or No whether or not prizes are offered.
Of course it's still possible for people to vote without having looked at both sides of the argument even if prizes are not offered. Irrespective of what you and I may prefer it's in the nature of democrary that everyone has the vote, irrespective of whether or not they have acquainted themselves with all relevant information.
To stop someone from voting on the grounds that they don't know enough about the subject would be slippy slope to take IMHO. Who would be the arbiter on such matters and determined who could vote and who couldn't?
Would we all have to take a test? If so are you sure you would pass?
I seem to be detecting some signs of elitism and oligarchy on this Forum which I must admit I didn''t expect.
jonty

Jonty

Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby Jonty » 2 Dec 2010, 5:01pm

Edwards wrote:
irc wrote:What colour and style is the coat just so I know if it worth entering? :wink:


It's a Gore Bike Path 11 but no information is given on colour. You could contact them and find out. Probably not worthwhile as it's already spoken for.
jonty :wink:

irc
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Location: glasgow

Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby irc » 2 Dec 2010, 5:03pm

Jonty wrote:To stop someone from voting on the grounds that they don't know enough about the subject would be slippy slope to take IMHO. Who would be the arbiter on such matters and determined who could vote and who couldn't?
Would we all have to take a test? If so are you sure you would pass?
I seem to be detecting some signs of elitism and oligarchy on this Forum which I must admit I didn''t expect.


I'd suggest that offering paricipation prizes encourgages random voting. I'm not suggesting any hurdle other than a genuine interest in the outcome. Is that elist? If so then guilty as charged.
No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?

Edwards
Posts: 5981
Joined: 16 Mar 2007, 10:09pm
Location: Birmingham

Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby Edwards » 2 Dec 2010, 5:05pm

Jonty I do not think it is elitism but scepticism and cynicism that we are showing about this. The coat does not matter one way or the other really. The point I was trying to get over is this vote now becoming more a raffle for something, rather than deciding the future of the CTC in a balanced way.

What is to stop each side putting up bigger and better prizes, only if they win the vote?
Keith Edwards
I do not care about spelling and grammar

thirdcrank
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Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby thirdcrank » 2 Dec 2010, 5:46pm

This jacket seems to be assuming undue importance. I'd have to say it never even occurred to me when I posted my vote I was also entering a raffle, even though I knew about it. It may be a bit of a poisoned chalice for the winner. Even though I speak as a self-confessed Goretex fetishist, in the unlikely chance that I should win it, I promise now to sell it and devote the proceeds to the Cyclists' Defence Fund. (Not as generous as it may sound - my wife would not let me bring another Goretex jacket into the house. :oops: )