Professional Advice

A place to discuss the issues relating to the proposed change in the national CTC’s structure.
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meic
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Re: Professional Advice

Postby meic » 31 Mar 2010, 11:01am

Those words "up to" and "from" are always used in misleading advertising.
Most people have learnt to notice the warning sign but many still fall for it.
Yma o Hyd

Regulator
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Re: Professional Advice

Postby Regulator » 31 Mar 2010, 1:24pm

What the tax advice (which has only recently been taken and is now buried on the CTC web-site) seem to show could happen is that any increase through Gift Aid may well be swallowed (or indeed dwarfed) by the loss of the mutual trading tax benefit we currently enjoy... :?

No wonder the tax advice is so difficult to find. :wink:

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gaz
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Re: Professional Advice

Postby gaz » 1 Apr 2010, 1:20pm

Regulator wrote:What the tax advice (which has only recently been taken and is now buried on the CTC web-site) seem to show could happen is that any increase through Gift Aid may well be swallowed (or indeed dwarfed) by the loss of the mutual trading tax benefit we currently enjoy... :?

No wonder the tax advice is so difficult to find. :wink:


TC posted some links to it on another thread which gave me the chance to read it. However I thought I'd see if I could find them myself.

CTC Home Page - About CTC (click), Converting CTC to a charity (click), (scroll down) Financial issues, Members' funds, etc. (click), (scroll down) What about other tax implications? "Click here for a summary of their report and here to see the full report". (Choose your click.)

Four clicks from the home page and linked from the financial issues FAQs. Does that really constitute "buried"?
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thirdcrank
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Re: Professional Advice

Postby thirdcrank » 1 Apr 2010, 1:33pm

I suppose if somebody like me :oops: can find something using a computer it's not in the 'hard to find' category. :lol: OTOH, I only took the trouble to look - and persist in looking - because I'd read it was supposed to be there.

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Re: Professional Advice

Postby Regulator » 1 Apr 2010, 3:12pm

gaz wrote:
Regulator wrote:What the tax advice (which has only recently been taken and is now buried on the CTC web-site) seem to show could happen is that any increase through Gift Aid may well be swallowed (or indeed dwarfed) by the loss of the mutual trading tax benefit we currently enjoy... :?

No wonder the tax advice is so difficult to find. :wink:


TC posted some links to it on another thread which gave me the chance to read it. However I thought I'd see if I could find them myself.

CTC Home Page - About CTC (click), Converting CTC to a charity (click), (scroll down) Financial issues, Members' funds, etc. (click), (scroll down) What about other tax implications? "Click here for a summary of their report and here to see the full report". (Choose your click.)

Four clicks from the home page and linked from the financial issues FAQs. Does that really constitute "buried"?


They've changed where it is on the web-site - it was another couple of links deeper and not even on the Converting CTC to a Charity page... :lol:

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gaz
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Re: Professional Advice

Postby gaz » 1 Apr 2010, 7:04pm

Regulator wrote:They've changed where it is on the web-site - it was another couple of links deeper and not even on the Converting CTC to a Charity page... :lol:


I find that quite believeable so I stand corrected. Fortunately so does the website. :wink:
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roderick.ramage
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Re: Professional Advice

Postby roderick.ramage » 4 Apr 2010, 2:05pm

I am slightly surprised that the CTC is not already a charity and in broad principle support the concept except for one key fact.

At present we, as members albeit indirectly through the medium of a limited company, are the beneficial owners of all the Club's assets, but by passing the resolution to change the CTC’s status, we will be giving those assets to a charitable cause. Look at the proposed alteration to para 3.1 in the memorandum of association at
http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/About_U ... a_2010.pdf.

So far as I can see, although the ‘save the ctc’ campaigners have raised it, the proposers have not addressed this fact publically. It is not even mentioned in the “Are there any drawback?” section of the website.

Beneficial ownership may an irrelevant and the proposed transfer of it may well be what a sufficient majority of members want, but it ought not to be pushed through until it has been fully explained, set against the advantages of charitable status and debated.

I expect to vote against the proposal.

Roderick Ramage
member (inactive) for nearly 50 years

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gaz
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Re: Professional Advice

Postby gaz » 4 Apr 2010, 7:43pm

Regulator wrote:No wonder the tax advice is so difficult to find. :wink:


At 08:14 on 2nd April one page of the savethectc site was updated. This page includes links to the summary and the full report.

"The missing report has now been published! It can be found buried away on the CTC web-site here. The Executive Summary which accompanies the report can be found here."

However the full report is so elusive that by the update at 10:48 on 2nd April to another page of the savethectc site it had gone missing and only the summary is linked.

"2. The supposed tax advantages are far from certain, as the professional advice, sought by Council only in February this year, and available to members only in edited form make clear." My bold for emphasis.

Time to find my cadence meter of should I just report it to Spin Watch? :lol:
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robgul
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Re: Professional Advice

Postby robgul » 4 Apr 2010, 8:35pm

gaz wrote:
Regulator wrote:No wonder the tax advice is so difficult to find. :wink:


At 08:14 on 2nd April one page of the savethectc site was updated. This page includes links to the summary and the full report.

"The missing report has now been published! It can be found buried away on the CTC web-site here. The Executive Summary which accompanies the report can be found here."

However the full report is so elusive that by the update at 10:48 on 2nd April to another page of the savethectc site it had gone missing and only the summary is linked.

"2. The supposed tax advantages are far from certain, as the professional advice, sought by Council only in February this year, and available to members only in edited form make clear." My bold for emphasis.

Time to find my cadence meter of should I just report it to Spin Watch? :lol:


I think you will find that both the Summary and Full Report as pdfs are now linked to the Save the CTC site (from the link in your message).

Rob

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gaz
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Re: Professional Advice

Postby gaz » 4 Apr 2010, 8:50pm

My message has two links included.

My first link is to a page which has links to the full report and the summary under a heading of "MYSTERY SOLVED!". The second is to a page last updated at a later time, under a heading of "A few simple truths remain..." that links only to the summary and states this is "available to members only in edited form".

Regardless of the interpretation of the full report it seems reasonable that having linked to it at 8:14 there should not be a denial of it's publication at 10:48. Both savethectc pages have been updated since my earlier post but the situation remains unchanged.

When I look at the "yes" campaign I find elements of spin, when I look at the "no" campaign I find elements of spin. I don't really expect it to be any other way.
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Re: Professional Advice

Postby Regulator » 5 Apr 2010, 5:10pm

gaz wrote:My message has two links included.

My first link is to a page which has links to the full report and the summary under a heading of "MYSTERY SOLVED!". The second is to a page last updated at a later time, under a heading of "A few simple truths remain..." that links only to the summary and states this is "available to members only in edited form".

Regardless of the interpretation of the full report it seems reasonable that having linked to it at 8:14 there should not be a denial of it's publication at 10:48. Both savethectc pages have been updated since my earlier post but the situation remains unchanged.

When I look at the "yes" campaign I find elements of spin, when I look at the "no" campaign I find elements of spin. I don't really expect it to be any other way.



Actually, the second statement is not inconsistent with the first statement (although I may need to give an explanation on the site). The "full" report that is available to the members is an edited version of the full report which was available only to Council members and which is still embargoed.

But I can see where the confusion might arise and will address it.

thirdcrank
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Re: Professional Advice

Postby thirdcrank » 5 Apr 2010, 5:24pm

Regulator

Can you clarify something for me, please.

A few days ago I linked a forum thread to two items on the CTC Desktop. I understood one to be the full advice from the specialist solicitors and the other to be an executive summary of that full advice.

Are you now saying that what I linked to in good faith was actually less than it appeared to be?

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Re: Professional Advice

Postby Regulator » 5 Apr 2010, 5:29pm

thirdcrank wrote:Regulator

Can you clarify something for me, please.

A few days ago I linked a forum thread to two items on the CTC Desktop. I understood one to be the full advice from the specialist solicitors and the other to be an executive summary of that full advice.

Are you now saying that what I linked to in good faith was actually less than it appeared to be?


The tax advice that is published for members' consumption is not the same as the tax advice received by Council. Certain edits have been done for 'commercial confidentiality' and other reasons.

Council agreed at its meeting in February that the revised version would be approved by the Management Committee, but some how that seems to have been changed to the Investment Committee...

thirdcrank
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Re: Professional Advice

Postby thirdcrank » 5 Apr 2010, 6:37pm

I really am becoming confused. The two references to the different versions of that advice which were on the CTC Desktop when I found them (or I should not have found them) seem to have disappeared altogether, although my links to them still work. (NB I shall continue to check that this is the case.) What is now on the CTC Desktop is a just link to the solicitor's www

During the recent debate on charitable status, Council became concerned about some of the statements being made about the tax position of CTC if it became a charity, so commissioned a detailed review by Sayer Vincent, a specialist firm of consultants and auditors for the charity sector. Information about Sayer Vincent can be found at http://www.sayervincent.co.uk/render.as ... 1&navIDs=1.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My earlier thread is now here, complete with the links, for anybody who wants to see the advice, or a version of it (while stocks last, as they say.):


thirdcrank wrote: http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/About_U ... Report.pdf

I think that's the specialist advice.

http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/About_U ... ummary.pdf

That's the summary

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Re: Professional Advice

Postby Regulator » 5 Apr 2010, 6:56pm

thirdcrank wrote:I really am becoming confused. The two references to the different versions of that advice which were on the CTC Desktop when I found them (or I should not have found them) seem to have disappeared altogether, although my links to them still work. (NB I shall continue to check that this is the case.) What is now on the CTC Desktop is a just link to the solicitor's www

During the recent debate on charitable status, Council became concerned about some of the statements being made about the tax position of CTC if it became a charity, so commissioned a detailed review by Sayer Vincent, a specialist firm of consultants and auditors for the charity sector. Information about Sayer Vincent can be found at http://www.sayervincent.co.uk/render.as ... 1&navIDs=1.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My earlier thread is now here, complete with the links, for anybody who wants to see the advice, or a version of it (while stocks last, as they say.):


thirdcrank wrote: http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/About_U ... Report.pdf

I think that's the specialist advice.

http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/About_U ... ummary.pdf

That's the summary



They seem to keep moving where the documents can be found. They were originally buried on the site and, when that was commented on, then they moved them to be more visible.

The summary is now here: http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/About_U ... ummary.pdf
and the full document is here: http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/About_U ... Report.pdf