Financial issues, Members funds etc.

A place to discuss the issues relating to the proposed change in the national CTC’s structure.
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squeaker
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Re: Financial issues, Members funds etc.

Postby squeaker » 3 Feb 2010, 4:04pm

Regulator wrote:The claims in table 2 seem to be part of this garbled and bizarre argument that 'the Trust is saving the Club money'.
Basically the Trust is doing some work that wouldn't be done by the Club and then trying to claim that the costs of that work are 'savings' to the Club. That is what Table 2 is supposed to reflect I think...
I thought it was supposed to show how much less 'work' cost to have stuff done by the charity - except that the (estimates) of how much it might have cost the club to do 'work' have not been shown and, if they were just shown as raw numbers, I'd still be looking for an explanation along the lines of 'having this work done by the trust meant that x% Darling tax could be avoided' or 'meant that the xyz slushfund contributed £n' :roll:
"42"

Regulator
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Re: Financial issues, Members funds etc.

Postby Regulator » 12 Feb 2010, 4:27pm

I see from Newsnet that the spin from Council and National Office continues...

Newsnet links to a CTC web-site page which states:

At this point the Council can assure members

  • That there are real benefits for the club and for members in becoming a full charity.
  • That the Council has addressed the comments made by the campaign against the changes and found that they are either commenting in issues that are completely unaffected by the changes or they are making accusations about finances that have not been substantiated when scrutinised.


If this is the case, why are the Chair and National Office offering a meeting with those opposed to the proposed change to try and hammer out the issues around the finances?

Either their offer of a meeting is simply disingenuous or their assurance in this statement is premature.

What do they have to hide?

Kevin Mayne
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Re: Financial issues, Members funds etc.

Postby Kevin Mayne » 12 Feb 2010, 5:21pm

To quote myself in the attached statement

"I think it is reasonable to have the discussion based on a common understanding of the underlying numbers."

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gaz
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Re: Financial issues, Members funds etc.

Postby gaz » 12 Feb 2010, 6:39pm

Regulator wrote:What do they have to hide?


What do you think they are hiding?
2020 : To redundancy ... and beyond!

Regulator
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Re: Financial issues, Members funds etc.

Postby Regulator » 12 Feb 2010, 6:50pm

gaz wrote:
Regulator wrote:What do they have to hide?


What do you think they are hiding?



A monumental mess? :wink: :D
Last edited by Regulator on 13 Feb 2010, 8:01am, edited 2 times in total.

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gaz
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Re: Financial issues, Members funds etc.

Postby gaz » 12 Feb 2010, 7:18pm

Statement by CTC Chief Executive Kevin Mayne. 12th February 2010. (My bold for emphasis).

"I am so confident about the robustness of our accounts and our projects that I have invited former CTC Financial Advisor and member of CTC South West London Colin Quemby together with Simon Legg, John Meudell and Greg Price and anyone else they recommend from the Save the CTC campaign to discuss the club and charity financial relationship and our accounts well before the publication of voting papers for the AGM. As the Statutory Accounts just don't provide the level of detail needed for some questions the meeting will have access to all CTC financial records including statutory, management and project accounts."

I'm glad progress is being made in gaining access to the detail, after all that's where the Devil is to be found.
2020 : To redundancy ... and beyond!

Regulator
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Re: Financial issues, Members funds etc.

Postby Regulator » 12 Feb 2010, 8:35pm

I find it interesting that Kevin finds it necessary to name individuals* and insinuate that they (which includes me) are alleging some sort of misconduct or fraud. This isn't the first time that such a tactic has been tried.

No-one involved with Save the CTC, or who has been involved with questioning the wisdom of the proposals, has suggested misconduct or fraud. This red herring is being flown by National Office and certain Councillors to try and deflect the real criticism, which is over poor management practice (i.e. not project accounting) and a lack of transparency.



*and now that he has done so he can't complain about being named himself.
Last edited by Regulator on 13 Feb 2010, 9:11am, edited 1 time in total.

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gaz
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Re: Financial issues, Members funds etc.

Postby gaz » 12 Feb 2010, 9:30pm

Regulator wrote:No-one involved with Save the CTC, or who has been involved with questioning the wisdom of the proposals, has suggested misconduct or fraud.


I agree.
2020 : To redundancy ... and beyond!

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Simon L6
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Re: Financial issues, Members funds etc.

Postby Simon L6 » 13 Feb 2010, 5:39pm

Harumph1 Apparently it's now the 25th Feb and no other date, and anybody who can't make it on that day (which is all of us bar Colin) can do without.

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gaz
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Re: Financial issues, Members funds etc.

Postby gaz » 15 Feb 2010, 10:37am

Simon L6 wrote:Harumph1 Apparently it's now the 25th Feb and no other date, and anybody who can't make it on that day (which is all of us bar Colin) can do without.


Perhaps not.

Memorandum and Articles of Association.

"9. True accounts shall be kept of the sums of money received and expended by the Club, and the matter in respect of which such receipt and expenditure takes place, and of the property, credits, and liabilities of the Club; and, subject to any reasonable restrictions as to the time and manner of inspecting the same that may be imposed in accordance with the regulations of the Club for the time being, shall be open to the inspection of the members."

gaz wrote:... the meeting will have access to all CTC financial records including statutory, management and project accounts."


It may well be the case that National Office's accounting team are only available on 25th February to give their detailed explanation and disucss the figures with you. I don't see how they could refuse to allow savethectc an opportunity to inspect the raw figures at a different time just because National Office has no-one available to discuss or explain them.
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gaz
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Re: Financial issues, Members funds etc.

Postby gaz » 15 Feb 2010, 10:40am

2020 : To redundancy ... and beyond!

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Simon L6
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Re: Financial issues, Members funds etc.

Postby Simon L6 » 15 Feb 2010, 1:22pm

gaz wrote:
Perhaps not.

Memorandum and Articles of Association.

"9. True accounts shall be kept of the sums of money received and expended by the Club, and the matter in respect of which such receipt and expenditure takes place, and of the property, credits, and liabilities of the Club; and, subject to any reasonable restrictions as to the time and manner of inspecting the same that may be imposed in accordance with the regulations of the Club for the time being, shall be open to the inspection of the members."

gaz wrote:... the meeting will have access to all CTC financial records including statutory, management and project accounts."


It may well be the case that National Office's accounting team are only available on 25th February to give their detailed explanation and disucss the figures with you. I don't see how they could refuse to allow savethectc an opportunity to inspect the raw figures at a different time just because National Office has no-one available to discuss or explain them.

That's a good point, Gaz, but the trouble is this - the 'raw' figures have themselves to be interrogated, and tested against experience.

There are two facets to this.

The first is that the CTC accounts must be reconciled with external sources, and the sums within the accounts clearly explained. I leave that to Colin and John

The second is that the CTC budget out turn must be tested against reality. What precisely does the Clubs expenditure of £113,744 for 'Central Overheads' represent? What precisely does the expenditure of £231,140 for Staff Costs represent? What benefits do those sums confer upon the members? And are we sure that the expenditure reaches the members in the form that the budgets suggest, or in any form at all? And, in that respect, the key knowledge is held by members, and, in particular, the secretaries of member groups. Incidentally the expenditure shown for Local Groups and Volunteer Support in the Club budget is £18,318.

Nobody pretends that when you hand over your £36 that you get precisely £36 worth of benefits back, and nobody's suggesting that getting your money's worth is desirable - the CTC spends money on things that offer only intangible benefits, particularly in its campaigning work. But....an understanding of what order of value comes back to the members is vital.

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Re: Financial issues, Members funds etc.

Postby Regulator » 28 Mar 2010, 10:39am

Unable to admit the truth, CTC Council has used pages 6-7 of the pre-AGM issue of Cycle to push more dubiously spun and inaccurate messages about the murky world of the CTC finances.

The most outrageously blatant of these misleading statements are the two which say:

* "Membership fees categorically do not support third party projects. In fact the exact opposite is the case."
* "We earned the remaining £0.4 million from the charges and surpluses we make on outside contracts - a saving of around £6.50 for every member of CTC."


The first statement is simply not true. Membership fees are used to indirectly support third party projects, through such things as staff time subsidy. As CTC does not have proper project accounting systems in place, charges to project costs are made on a 'guesstimate' basis and such matters are often overlooked.

The second statement is also blatantly untrue. It seems to suggest that the Trust has saved the Club money. When this statement was first made by the Chairman of the Management Committee at Council in January 2010, he was asked to provide itemised figures to back this statement up. To, date he and National Office have singularly failed to do so - they've simply repeated their assertion without a shred of evidence to support it.

And if the Trust is making so much money, perhaps they can explain why it then needs the sum of £453,000 (in the Chief Executive's own words) "as a donation from Club to Trust to bring the accounts to break even". And we mustn't forget that's on top of the £407,000 already paid for the work done by the Trust on behalf of the Club.

Far from the Trust making a saving for the Club of almost £6.50 per member, it's actually getting a subsidy from the Club of about £7.50 per member.

Does the Council actually expect members to believe their so-called "financial experts" when they seem to be incapable of basic maths?

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Simon L6
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Re: Financial issues, Members funds etc.

Postby Simon L6 » 31 Mar 2010, 9:50pm

Amongst respondents to the survey:
1. Over 60% of charities with an income above £500,000 currently deliver
public services.
2. Only 14% of charities that are not currently delivering public services are
actively considering doing so in the next year. The survey results also
indicate that there are barriers to entering the market for smaller and
locally based charities.
3. One third of charities that deliver public services obtain 80% or more of
their income from this source. This figure rises to almost 67% for charities
with an income above £10 million.
4. Almost one third of all public services delivered by charities are in the
fields of health and social care, but the survey also showed a great variety
of services provided.
5. The most common funding arrangement is a combination of grants,
contracts and service level agreements. 37% of charities delivering public
services are funded in this way.
6. Over two thirds of all funding agreements for public service delivery are for
one year only.
7. Of the charities responding to our survey:
•Only 12% of charities delivering public services reported that they
obtain full cost recovery in all cases.

• 37% said they obtain full cost recovery in some or most cases.
• 43% indicated that they do not obtain full cost recovery for any of the
services they deliver.


http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/Li ... 15text.pdf