After the Petition, what next?

A place to discuss the issues relating to the proposed change in the national CTC’s structure.
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robgul
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby robgul » 26 Nov 2010, 4:23pm

It seems that an incentive to vote is being used, according to this week's newsletter ... with all voters being entered in a prize draw .... is that legal, constitutional, ethical, acceptable ?

I don't recollect there being any incentives at the general election (other than obvious related to having a say in the future of many of the politicians) :twisted:

Here we go again ........... :roll:

Rob

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meic
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby meic » 26 Nov 2010, 4:58pm

I would say that it is ridiculous.
We are being offered prizes to vote on the future of OUR club paid for out of OUR own money! Crazy.
The majority of the membership do not care at all about the issue, or certainly not enough to vote.
My first reaction is well take the prizes and laugh but then it dawned on me that WE are paying for the prizes that we win.

I dont have any moral concerns, even though it may be an attempt to get the desired outcome. (I assume that they assume that the informed and concerned who are bothered to vote, will vote against).
Unless people are making up imaginary members to vote, everyone is entitled to their vote regardless of the reason why they are taking it up.
Yma o Hyd

thirdcrank
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby thirdcrank » 26 Nov 2010, 5:44pm

Some building societies have a system whereby 'they' donate a sum to charity for every vote cast. Great, except that as building societies are mutuals, they are actually giving away the members' money to encourage them to vote and as it isn't taken out of the individual voter's account, even non-voters are shelling out - admittedly only an infinitesimal amount each - to join in what is in effect an exercise to make the society's board look a teeny weeny bit more democratic. I'd be more impressed if some of these building society execs - whose main qualification seems to be the ability to flock together like sheep - stumped up even 0.1p each to charity for every vote, but I should coco.

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gaz
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby gaz » 27 Nov 2010, 3:13pm

meic wrote:...Unless people are making up imaginary members to vote, everyone is entitled to their vote regardless of the reason why they are taking it up.


Hmmm. Our family group voting paper arrived today. There are three in our family group, there are 6 voters' boxes on the form. One is crossed out. I've got one vote, Mrs gaz has one, mini-me has two and there's another mystery voter on the form. :?

I wonder how many others are like that. :(
2020 : To redundancy ... and beyond!

lobsterboyuk
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby lobsterboyuk » 27 Nov 2010, 4:30pm

I admit to not paying too much attention during the last vote, are there any threads outlining views of members who are for converting to a charity? Particularly with respect to the points made on the "Save the CTC" website - such as only 25% of membership fees for membership benefits?

I'm not at all comfortable with the idea that rather than joining a club of like-minded folk I would mainly be donating to a campaigning organisation. I would almost certainly leave the CTC if this is the case. Have I misunderstood anything?

thirdcrank
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby thirdcrank » 27 Nov 2010, 5:02pm

lobsterboyuk

There are various sections of the forum which were set up in anticipation of the AGM and IIRC the titles of those sections matched exactly the way the matter had been presented by the CTC Council and also IIRC that forum set-up was at the request of the CTC Director, Kevin Mayne. There are various threads on those parts of the forum and in the ordinary nature of these things, plenty of points were raised and received plenty more comment in both directions. Plenty of worthwhile reading IMO :D .

Regulator
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby Regulator » 28 Nov 2010, 1:38pm

gaz wrote:
meic wrote:...Unless people are making up imaginary members to vote, everyone is entitled to their vote regardless of the reason why they are taking it up.


Hmmm. Our family group voting paper arrived today. There are three in our family group, there are 6 voters' boxes on the form. One is crossed out. I've got one vote, Mrs gaz has one, mini-me has two and there's another mystery voter on the form. :?

I wonder how many others are like that. :(



But National Office will tell you, despite three independent reports to the contrary, that there's nothing wrong with the membership system :roll:

I'm afraid you'll have to contact National Office to get a correct form...

...or you could just use all five votes :twisted: :D

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gaz
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby gaz » 28 Nov 2010, 3:15pm

Regulator wrote:I'm afraid you'll have to contact National Office to get a correct form...


Sounds like the right way forward.

Regulator wrote:...or you could just use all five votes :twisted: :D


Only if I'd been appointed as a proxy :wink:
2020 : To redundancy ... and beyond!

thirdcrank
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby thirdcrank » 28 Nov 2010, 3:32pm

The form that has come for me is correct in that it has only a space for one vote. (No space for First or Second Cranks :wink: )

swansonj
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby swansonj » 28 Nov 2010, 5:40pm

meic wrote: Hmmm. Our family group voting paper arrived today. There are three in our family group, there are 6 voters' boxes on the form. One is crossed out. I've got one vote, Mrs gaz has one, mini-me has two and there's another mystery voter on the form. :?

I wonder how many others are like that. :(

My form has 5 spaces for the four of us - my daughter appears to have two votes.

It seems to me inevitable that if the result is close (either way) there is ample basis for legal challenge. Well done CTC (sarcasm) for thoroughly stuffing up a simple exercise.

Barry Flood
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby Barry Flood » 29 Nov 2010, 11:50am

lobsterboyuk

lobsterboyuk wrote:with respect to the points made on the "Save the CTC" website - such as only 25% of membership fees for membership benefits?


You are referring presumably to the Save the CTC web site where there is an extraordinary section about the “25% rule”. The 25% referred to is a calculation of how much Gift Aid we can claim on your membership fee. This is solely a tax rule which calculates how much of the membership fee is personal benefit and how much tax relief we can claim.
As most of your fee helps you and others go cycling (an allowable charitable activity) and individual items like the magazine are excluded under the rules this will not affect CTC materially.
However Save the CTC goes on to make the erronoeus claim that “This means that only £9 of the current £36 adult member fee – or even less if you pay a lower fee – could be spent on you.”
No it doesn’t. This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of tax law as it affects charities. There is no value set on benefits in Charity Law; this is purely a tax calculation, and therefore imposes no limit on the amount of their subscriptions that can be spent on members. I might add that I am a tax professional.

lobsterboyuk wrote:'m not at all comfortable with the idea that rather than joining a club of like-minded folk I would mainly be donating to a campaigning organisation.


On your second point may I invite you to read the last paragraph of my interview at page 8 of the current Cycle;
“With the new Act the government recognised that healthy, environmentally friendly cycling is good for our country, and offer us up to £160,000 in tax relief to help our work, additional assistance that “no” voters would have us reject. I emphasise that these will be our funds, to be spent directly by us, on traditional member benefits like local member groups, and additional financial support for local and national events.
Campaigning is a core part of CTC supported by those voting both for and against our charity motion. Long before this charity debate CTC members were proud to have spent over 100 years campaigning to make the roads safer for cyclist.

I hope this helps.

Barry Flood
CTC councillor

Regulator
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby Regulator » 29 Nov 2010, 1:15pm

Barry

Perhaps you'd like to put that quote from the Save the CTC in context. It's in an article about the tax implications of the proposed changes and, in particular, about the Gift Aid potential - something that Council and National Office were pushing heavily.

It is preceded by the following words:

The 25% Rule means that, if the CTC becomes a unified charity, the CTC will be able to provide you with member benefits totalling only 25% of your membership fee if it wants to reap the tax benefits of charitable status. Any more than that and it won't be able to claim Gift Aid.


I should also point out that there is no certainty that "...individual items like the magazine are excluded under the rules this should not affect CTC materially." As you know, HM Revenue & Customs will not enter negotiations on or confirm such matters until the CTC has become a charity.

And as for your claim :

With the new Act the government recognised that healthy, environmentally friendly cycling is good for our country, and offer us up to £160,000 in tax relief to help our work, additional assistance that “no” voters would have us reject.


That is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. The 'No' caampaign has made it clear that it's prime aim is to delay any merger until such time as the financial controls and governance processes within CTC are in a fit state.

I emphasise that these will be our funds, to be spent directly by us, on traditional member benefits like local member groups, and additional financial support for local and national events.


Funny - I can't remember Council discussing or deciding what any potential Gift Aid income might be spent on. Nice to see 'democracy' in action...

Regards

Greg Price
CTC Councillor.

lobsterboyuk
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby lobsterboyuk » 29 Nov 2010, 4:04pm

Thanks Barry and Greg for taking the time to reply, I want to take some time to understand the points for and against the conversion to a charity and I can see that there is a lot of detail involved here. As I wean myself off of the lycra, heartrate monitor etc... and realise that touring is a great way to get my cycling fix without the pain, sweat and tears of sportier riding - I understand the depth of feeling on both sides because we all love and cherish cycling and that CTC in whatever form is an important protector of our interests. I guess that's why so many people are so passionate that the structure of the CTC is the best it can be going forwards.

Barry, I was concerned to read the tax points on the Save the CTC website, is there a 25% limit on benefits provided to members to gain the benefits of Gift Aid? Could the CTC continue providing all benefits open to Members such as the shop, third party insurance, routes database, forums and all the rest and sit inside that 25%, or in your opinion is the 25% rule mis-interpreted by the Save the CTC article?

Thanks for the clarification that you see charity status as not affecting the funding for local groups, that's reassuring and were CTC to convert to charity status I would not imagine having to leave after all!

Regulator
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby Regulator » 29 Nov 2010, 4:31pm

lobsterboyuk wrote:...

Barry, I was concerned to read the tax points on the Save the CTC website, is there a 25% limit on benefits provided to members to gain the benefits of Gift Aid? Could the CTC continue providing all benefits open to Members such as the shop, third party insurance, routes database, forums and all the rest and sit inside that 25%, or in your opinion is the 25% rule mis-interpreted by the Save the CTC article?

Thanks for the clarification that you see charity status as not affecting the funding for local groups, that's reassuring and were CTC to convert to charity status I would not imagine having to leave after all!



Hi Lobsterboy

The information you are looking for is available on the HM Customs & Revenue web-site here

Providing benefits in return for donations

Your charity or CASC can give donors modest (low value) tokens of appreciation - called 'benefits' - in order to acknowledge a gift but there are limits on their value.

Benefit value limits for donations

Amount of donation -> Benefit value limit

£0 -100 = 25% of the donation

£101 - £1,000 = £25

Above £1,000 (donated up to and including 5 April 2007) = 2.5% of the donation

Above £10,000 (donated up to and including 5 April 2007)= £250

Above £1,000 (donated on or after 6 April 2007)= 5% of the donation

Above £10,000 (donated on or after 6 April 2007) = £500


The key principle to remember is that if any donor - or person connected to the donor - benefits significantly from their donation, then their donation(s) will not qualify for Gift Aid.

The benefit limits listed above are for Gift Aid purposes only. If you give a donor a benefit in return for a payment this may be considered a business supply for VAT purposes and VAT may be due on income.


If CTC wants to claim Gift Aid on member subscriptions (which would be counted as donations), then no more than 25% of the member subscription can be used to provide personal benefits (or 'tokens of appreciation') to those making the donation (the members).

Barry Flood
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby Barry Flood » 30 Nov 2010, 11:37am

lobsterboyuk

Thanks for your question

Firstly may I say that all of the information given either here or in the CTC website is based on specialist advice taken by Council. That advice indicates that any non qualifying member benefits will fall easily within the 25% allowable, (the magazine for example will not be counted a member benefit), thus leaving the whole of the membership subscription qualifying for Gift Aid. But....even if the 25% limit were to be exceeded we could still qualify for Gift Aid on the sizeable balance of the membership subscription, which would bring massive extra funding each year to the club.

This is a complex area, but one where all the professionals involved anticipate a favourable outcome. If you would like to go into further detail here is a link to the matter on our website, http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=5364. Alternatively I invite you, or anyone else with specific points to contact me direct at Barry.Flood@CTC.org.uk

So the answer to your question is "Yes"...the CTC will continue providing all of the benefits you mention to Members, but with more money to spend on the services that members value.


Regards

Barry Flood
CTC Councillor