After the Petition, what next?

A place to discuss the issues relating to the proposed change in the national CTC’s structure.
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gaz
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby gaz » 3 Dec 2010, 2:18pm

Karen Sutton wrote:....As swansonj points out, the Chair did not act illegally. I am perfectly aware of that. I would not attempt to be more authoratitive than CTC's legal team. I was offering my opinion of the situation as I see it. I would however say that the demand for a re-vote is not simply to defeat Council's desire to turn our Club into a Charity. It was also to revisit the issue in order to try to get more members to vote. Unfortunately the need for a more balanced information from both the "yes" and "no" camps campaign has not been met in my opinion.
My emphasis.

Then why not revisit all the other motions at the AGM? They all attracted a similar turn-out.

If a lower percentage of the membership vote in the poll of the whole club than the percentage that voted at the AGM, with 51% of the vote no and 49% of the vote yes, will the petition not have achieved it's aim?

Will voters consider such an outcome legitimate? :wink:

It is a perfectly valid course of action for Jeff Tollerman to have raised his petition and to call a poll of the whole club simply to ask the membership to reconsider the matter, even if 100% of the membership had voted first time around.

Of course as Si pointed out earlier a vote of "Yes" still doesn't end the matter, AGM Motion 10 was not carried and at this stage even with a further "Yes" vote to Motion 8 we cannot become a Charity.
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Simon L6
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby Simon L6 » 3 Dec 2010, 2:24pm

I think the difference is that Resolution 8 sets a course which, once taken, is irreversible. I accept that the enabling resolution 10 didn't gain the required 75% and the issue is therefore, in practical terms, parked, but it seemed to the petitioners that an injustice had taken place, and it should be righted.

I suspect that a number of the signatories of the petition also thought to themselves 'let's get this thing settled, one way or the other'.

I further suspect that the petitioners had some confidence in assurances given about even-handedness, and thought that if the powers that be were to be more even-handed than they were last time (they could scarcely be less) then there might be a different result. They've already been disappointed in this respect.

For my part I suspect that the powers that be are just gagging at the prospect of a small walk-out if the vote goes their way. Shorn of a rumbunctious minority that actually wants to know why one overworked staffer supporting local groups has been replaced by a part-timer who has other responsibilities, the CTC would be better placed to become Sustrans 2.

thirdcrank
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby thirdcrank » 3 Dec 2010, 6:43pm

In the scenario of government-funding for a charity to promote cycling among non-cyclists, then a membership whose most active people had a tendency to be white middle-aged (or upper-middle aged :wink: ) and who were all regular cyclists already, must have been an embarrassment, in much the same way that New Labour didn't want the unions but needed their cash and support.

Well, the expectation of manna from heaven has gone. In a bonfire of Quangoes, Cycling England was always going to be low-hanging fruit (sorry for the mixed metaphors.) I've not heard any rumbles of protest marches. Now the entire focus seems to be Gift Aid and I fear that that has just not been thought through. I've mentioned the Titanic before and I genuinely fear the iceberg. Perhaps it's the gloomy weather. So, after the petition, what next? If the No vote is so strong that it makes pressing on with the conversion unrealistic, the sinking of the great ship will be blamed on the boat rockers and the failure to convert. If it goes the other way, a tactic will be found to carry it at an EGM or similar, and then the sinking of the great ship will all be part of a logical merger with Sustrans, or any other charity who sees mileage in a salvage operation. As the trustees of a charity owe a duty to the charity rather than its membership, it will be on yer bikes for the 'rumbunctious minority'.

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gaz
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby gaz » 3 Dec 2010, 9:06pm

I don't accept TC's damned if we do, damned if we don't view of the future.

Personally I see no iceberg, whichever course we plot.
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thirdcrank
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby thirdcrank » 3 Dec 2010, 9:40pm

gaz

I really do hope you are right. If it wasn't something that I felt strongly about, I wouldn't bother posting. I just can't help feeling that this has gathered a momentum of its own. It's presented as though it's been following a clearly defined path all along and suddenly some malcontents have tried to ambush it. My impression is that it was something initially started on the basis that it was nothing more than a legal nicety with tax advatages but no significant implications. If we look at the strategic vision stuff two separate organisations were the plan. Somewhere along the line, the writing on the end of the barn was altered. I'm troubled by the way the hint of public £zillions for cycling has apparently turned heads. No point in repeating stuff I posted before the AGM but I think I was one of the misery merchants then who predicted that the public spending extravaganza was over. I should have loved to have been proved wrong if, for example Cameraon had annouced that in spite of it all, as a cyclist he thought the CTC should be exempt from any cuts, Cleggers agreed, and Bojo was jumping up and down in even greater agreement. He could have told Ozzy to send some dosh straight away ....... It hasn't happened and it isn't going to.

The fact that neither you nor I want me to be right will have no effect on what happens.

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Simon L6
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby Simon L6 » 3 Dec 2010, 10:28pm

gaz wrote:I don't accept TC's damned if we do, damned if we don't view of the future.

Personally I see no iceberg, whichever course we plot.

I'm sinking under the metaphors - stop it, the pair of you!

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Simon L6
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby Simon L6 » 3 Dec 2010, 10:31pm

thirdcrank wrote:gaz

I really do hope you are right. If it wasn't something that I felt strongly about, I wouldn't bother posting. I just can't help feeling that this has gathered a momentum of its own. It's presented as though it's been following a clearly defined path all along and suddenly some malcontents have tried to ambush it. My impression is that it was something initially started on the basis that it was nothing more than a legal nicety with tax advatages but no significant implications. If we look at the strategic vision stuff two separate organisations were the plan. Somewhere along the line, the writing on the end of the barn was altered. I'm troubled by the way the hint of public £zillions for cycling has apparently turned heads. No point in repeating stuff I posted before the AGM but I think I was one of the misery merchants then who predicted that the public spending extravaganza was over. I should have loved to have been proved wrong if, for example Cameraon had annouced that in spite of it all, as a cyclist he thought the CTC should be exempt from any cuts, Cleggers agreed, and Bojo was jumping up and down in even greater agreement. He could have told Ozzy to send some dosh straight away ....... It hasn't happened and it isn't going to.

The fact that neither you nor I want me to be right will have no effect on what happens.

the writing was on the wall. I didn't vote for either of the Coalition parties but I'm not kidding myself - if Labour had got in then spending on sustainable transport, never close to their heart, would have gone for a Burton. The general point is that if you run a business with one customer, you're kind of vulnerable.

stillrolling
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby stillrolling » 3 Dec 2010, 10:47pm

I’ve been a member of CTC for the last 20 years and like a lot of others I’ve been happy enough to endorse the broad thesis of supporting and campaigning for cycling without becoming too involved with any other aspects of how the organisation is managed. Now, since I’ve been asked to vote again, I decided to probe more deeply into the arguments both for and against.........The debate had my eyes glazed over and my mental processes in danger of being atrophied. I’m not a lawyer or an accountant much less an expert on charitable status. But one thing, after many years in management, I have learnt is, if you face a major decision , get advice. Ensure you know who the experts are, ask (employ) those experts.....and take their advice.
This is what Council have done . So I read in some detail the CASS report on the CTC website and guess what? That independent body thoroughly researched the organisation, delivered recommendations and constructive criticisms and made a number or conclusions. Among their recommendations:
2.31 The CTC adopts a practicable timetable to debate and agree at its 2010 AGM a suitable form of unification
5.2 We agree with the broad assessment of benefits by interviewees and the workshop that unification would bring.
5.2 While we acknowledge that it is possible to maintain the current structure of
CTC, i.e. the non charitable membership organisation, and CTC Charitable
Trust, we consider that this is neither necessary nor likely to deliver the
greatest benefit either to CTC’s members or the wider cycling public that CTC
serves.

The 30 page document makes a number of other points in favour of the change but the last paragraph encapsulates it well enough for me... (and presumably others who have neither the time or the inclination to work out the nuances )
The Council have also received advice from charity and voluntary experts http://www.russell-cooke.co.uk/serv_c&o_intro.htm and commissioned a detailed review by Sayer Vincent, a specialist firm of consultants and auditors for the charity sector. http://www.sayervincent.co.uk/render.as ... 1&navIDs=1.
Having perused the correspondence on the threads I’ve found nothing to convince me that the experts have got it wrong. Am I missing something?

David Cox
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby David Cox » 4 Dec 2010, 7:06am

Cycling England is not the only funder of CTC's development work but its contracts will be honoured, there is not a crisis, although loss of this funding and valuable work is regrettable. The Asda Foundation and Big Lottery continue and Bike Club is expanding its work at the moment in Northern Ireland and Scotland. The CTC has had some NHS funding from PCTs and SHAs and these bodies will be abolished by 2012 and 2013 by the Health Bill due to go to Parliament. However, Mr Lansley is keen on public health and Local Authorities will have a ring fenced budget some of which may be expected to promote physical exercise and mental well being. The CTC and the CTC Charitable Trust continues to be well managed and solvent, with adequate reserves to survive changes in funding and fund redundancies if needed.

Regulator
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby Regulator » 4 Dec 2010, 7:42am

David Cox wrote:Cycling England is not the only funder of CTC's development work but its contracts will be honoured, there is not a crisis, although loss of this funding and valuable work is regrettable. The Asda Foundation and Big Lottery continue and Bike Club is expanding its work at the moment in Northern Ireland and Scotland. The CTC has had some NHS funding from PCTs and SHAs and these bodies will be abolished by 2012 and 2013 by the Health Bill due to go to Parliament. However, Mr Lansley is keen on public health and Local Authorities will have a ring fenced budget some of which may be expected to promote physical exercise and mental well being. The CTC and the CTC Charitable Trust continues to be well managed and solvent, with adequate reserves to survive changes in funding and fund redundancies if needed.


What reserves does the Trust have?

The Club has healthy reserves - the Trust doesn't.

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gaz
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby gaz » 4 Dec 2010, 6:10pm

Regulator wrote:What reserves does the Trust have?

The Club has healthy reserves - the Trust doesn't.


The well-hidden document Club and Trust financial inter-relationship covers why this is the case.

It's a lengthy document and one I'm sure that Regulator will have read. I'd recommend that others do so to.
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Regulator
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby Regulator » 5 Dec 2010, 1:15am

gaz wrote:
Regulator wrote:What reserves does the Trust have?

The Club has healthy reserves - the Trust doesn't.


The well-hidden document Club and Trust financial inter-relationship covers why this is the case.

It's a lengthy document and one I'm sure that Regulator will have read. I'd recommend that others do so to.



Yep - I've read that document. It's a wonderful piece of fiction which I believe has been nominated for the Booker next year... :wink:

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Simon L6
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby Simon L6 » 5 Dec 2010, 8:26am

gaz wrote:
Regulator wrote:What reserves does the Trust have?

The Club has healthy reserves - the Trust doesn't.


The well-hidden document Club and Trust financial inter-relationship covers why this is the case.

It's a lengthy document and one I'm sure that Regulator will have read. I'd recommend that others do so to.

Gax, I'm sorry, but without any reliable means of attributing costs (and there isn't any) all we can go on is that the CTC has cash in the bank, that members are not getting an awful lot for their subs, and that the Trust is burning cash to such an extent that they apparently need a quarter of a million pound bridging loan.

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gaz
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby gaz » 5 Dec 2010, 9:52am

When it comes to value I've been getting enough from my subs to choose to renew every year since I joined, 1 January 1987.
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thirdcrank
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Re: After the Petition, what next?

Postby thirdcrank » 5 Dec 2010, 10:35am

gaz wrote:When it comes to value I've been getting enough from my subs to choose to renew every year since I joined, 1 January 1987.


I think for most of us with any sort of view on this whole charity conversion issue, the explanation begins "I've been a member* quite a while... " and it ends with one or other of the following:

A "...and I'm sure things will continue that way."

B "... and I'm worried about what is happening."

* I was first a family member in 1958. After various breaks I rejoined in 1987 (coincidence) A five-year period of membership expired in the middle of last year. Penny-pincher that I am (and following some helpful advice from another forum member) I then waited till I became an old age pensioner last Chistmas before rejoining with the bus pass concession.