Vote still to come?

A place to discuss the issues relating to the proposed change in the national CTC’s structure.
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Si
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Re: Vote still to come?

Postby Si » 30 Nov 2010, 11:51am

Simon L6 wrote:now are you seriously telling us that it is unreasonable to suggest that staff won't feel wary about voting against resolution 8 if the ballot papers are individualised and sent to National Office?


What I am telling you is that you ought to be able to back up any acusation that you make with reliable proof. If you can do that then I don't see a problem, and I do not see why it causes you a problem.

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Simon L6
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Re: Vote still to come?

Postby Simon L6 » 30 Nov 2010, 12:38pm

well I can only say what I know - that I've spoken to an ex-staffer who said that staffers would not be voting against in a public vote.

John Catt has made it clear that this wasn't thought through at Council, and I think that's poor.

workhard

Re: Vote still to come?

Postby workhard » 30 Nov 2010, 3:00pm

Si wrote:<Please be careful about how you put across comments with regard to the legitimacy of this voting procedure. Although it is fine to question the mechanics chosen for the vote, suggestions or inferences that the method was chosen because someone _will_ be checking up on how people vote will not be tolerated unless you can supply clear proof of your belief.>


Exhibit One for the prosecution; ERS are not involved in the process => the process is more open to misuse and abuse than it previously was.

Can the chosen method of voting GUARANTEE no one within the CTC will EVER know how I, or anyone else, voted on this issue? No, thought not. Using the ERS would have guaranteed that.

Very little in life happens by chance. More often things happen by design.

So in this case "Cui Bono?"

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meic
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Re: Vote still to come?

Postby meic » 30 Nov 2010, 3:09pm

You could easily argue that enough money has already been wasted on this enterprise and why spend the extra money.

Personally I have a lot of sympathy for the Councillor who allegedly suggested that we all pay our own postage.
Yma o Hyd

thirdcrank
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Re: Vote still to come?

Postby thirdcrank » 30 Nov 2010, 8:04pm

Two separate points:

1) I'm not in cahoots with anybody over this. It's several years since I had any formal contact with anybody in connection with cycling. OTOH, I obviously meet various chums - mainly in the bof category like me - and I've met nobody who is in favour. The most common sentiment seems to be one of suspicion leading to a vote against on safety grounds. I've been surpised at a couple of very mild-mannered people ("he wouldn't say boo to a goose" types) who have got very wound up about it, but my guess is that the majority never bothered to vote.

2) Let's imagine, that to save postage and envelopes, and to ensure a good turnout, some innocent had decided that DAs, members' groups or whatever would be asked to collect the votes of their own members and anybody else they could visit in their areas. I know plenty of sound people who would have taken that on and even ostentatiously looked away when the cross was marked on the paper. Some would have been offended if it had been questioned. Putting this at it's lowest level, it leaves an open goal for somebody with deep pockets to challenge the result, and that's before we get to printing errors on ballot papers.

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Si
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Re: Vote still to come?

Postby Si » 1 Dec 2010, 10:00am

workhard wrote:
Si wrote:<Please be careful about how you put across comments with regard to the legitimacy of this voting procedure. Although it is fine to question the mechanics chosen for the vote, suggestions or inferences that the method was chosen because someone _will_ be checking up on how people vote will not be tolerated unless you can supply clear proof of your belief.>


Exhibit One for the prosecution; ERS are not involved in the process => the process is more open to misuse and abuse than it previously was.

Can the chosen method of voting GUARANTEE no one within the CTC will EVER know how I, or anyone else, voted on this issue? No, thought not. Using the ERS would have guaranteed that.

Very little in life happens by chance. More often things happen by design.

So in this case "Cui Bono?"


Not sure why you are bothering to argue with me - I am making no comment on the voting system one way or another. But I shall spell out, yet again, what I am saying: for the sake of the forum and the forum's admin, we will not tolerate any unsubstantiated accusation of anyone partaking in cheating/underhand dealing/conning/etc (note the term 'unsubstantiated', and the fact that we will always stay on the safe side of any grey areas). Because if you make such a claim without proof then you are potentially committing slander, and you run the risk of dragging the forum admin into court with you if the target of your accusation decides to take action. If, on the other hand, you have got real proof of your opinion and you display this proof, then your opinion changes from being 0pinion to being fact, and there is not a problem.

Stating that the voting system is not as secure as it was with ERS is not an accusation that someone is trying to pervert the vote, and thus is a perfectly allowable statement to make. Stating that the voting system could allow someone to work out who voted which way is not an accusation that someone will do that, and thus is a perfectly reasonable statement to make. Saying that people might worry about their employers knowing which way that they vote is also perfectly acceptable because it is not the same as saying that the employer will be monitoring the vote and punishing those that vote the wrong way.

However, saying that someone is definitely going to be using this voting system to intentionally and unfairly pervert the outcome, based upon the evidence so far presented, is not acceptable. Perhaps it would be easier for people to imagine that instead of just posting on some manky old internet forum, they were stood in court having to defend what they were saying - would they still feel so happy about what or how they had said it?

I don't think that I can make this any clearer, can I?

edit: please note, as I said, these issues are not going to be allowed to be sidetracked into discussions about moderation policy - I have made the rules clear and any such posts questioning moderation will be removed. By all means, however, feel free to discuss moderation policy with us via PM.

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Yorkshireman
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Re: Vote still to come?

Postby Yorkshireman » 1 Dec 2010, 2:42pm

I don't think that anyone has said/implied that there is anything 'crooked' about this voting/ballot system or the people who are running it. However it is certainly faulty in parts (incorrect/missing papers etc) so perhaps it may be a good idea to scrap this vote and start again (and do it properly).
Colin N.
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goatwarden
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Re: Vote still to come?

Postby goatwarden » 2 Dec 2010, 10:46am

Thank you, everyone, for your lively debate; it seems to have revolved mostly around the legitimacy or otherwise of the voting system and the political pressure which might be btought to bear upon employeees of CTC.

I am not sure it has moved my indiference or clarified why a situation I believed to be sealed is still in a state of flux. I remain unconvinced that my vote will influence my future involvement with CTC either way; perhaps if I were a truly good person I would seek better to understand the issue. Unfortunately I am a very bad person, so will let my apathy towards the situation give equal weight to both sides, by not voting.

David Cox
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Re: Vote still to come?

Postby David Cox » 2 Dec 2010, 6:34pm

Goatwarden,
Having persevered through this debate surely you cant count yourself as apathetic. Obviously as a member of Council, I'd rather you voted. If you dont want to vote why not feel good about it and thing of yourself as abstaining a much more honorable state of citizenship ?

goatwarden
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Re: Vote still to come?

Postby goatwarden » 2 Dec 2010, 7:46pm

David Cox wrote:Goatwarden,
Having persevered through this debate surely you cant count yourself as apathetic. Obviously as a member of Council, I'd rather you voted. If you dont want to vote why not feel good about it and thing of yourself as abstaining a much more honorable state of citizenship ?


Thatt is a very generous suggestion offering retreat with honour, but I simply have made no effort to understand the issues so feel I don't deserve an honourable exit.