Incorrect Ballot Papers

A place to discuss the issues relating to the proposed change in the national CTC’s structure.
Karen Sutton
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Re: Incorrect Ballot Papers

Postby Karen Sutton » 13 Dec 2010, 5:05pm

Of course the lack of reporting could be that those with no/incorrect ballot papers don't want to be bothered.

Regulator
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Re: Incorrect Ballot Papers

Postby Regulator » 13 Dec 2010, 5:14pm

I find the suggestion of 15 incorrect ballot papers (including missing ones) interesting. On YACF 14 reported errors. I can't believe that one forum would make up 90+% of the people experiencing problems.

Perhaps Karen is right. We're seeing disenfranchisement by error.

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julk
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Re: Incorrect Ballot Papers

Postby julk » 13 Dec 2010, 6:09pm

I read Kevin's words to mean 15 incorrect - plus all the family ones with duplicate entries.

Kevin has not put a number on the printer's duplicate errors, interesting to know how many.

Mine was one of the duplicate errors and a replacement form has not arrived yet in snowy Scotland.

Clarion
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Re: Incorrect Ballot Papers

Postby Clarion » 13 Dec 2010, 7:08pm

Kevin Mayne wrote:As promised I said I would report on the progress with any ballot errors.

Other than the printer error with family members described above the total number of other errors notified to us to date is 15.

All have received replacement forms.

Kevin Mayne


You haven't given us a figure on the 'printer error'. I think it is important that you are open with members about how far wrong this ballot has gone. And, if you are suggesting that all who have suffered from errors have received replacement forms, I can confirm we have not, even though I did request one directly. So that part is not accurate.

Neither you nor the Returning Officer have answered my questions about the use of incorrect ballot papers, and the protocol for their inclusion/exclusion. I would have hoped that you had had sufficient time to have decided how to handle this.
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swansonj
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Re: Incorrect Ballot Papers

Postby swansonj » 21 Dec 2010, 6:51am

julk wrote: Mine was one of the duplicate errors and a replacement form has not arrived yet in snowy Scotland.


I have not yet received my replacement form and I'm in Surrey. Has anyone with the duplicate-family-member probnlem received a replacement form yet?

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julk
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Re: Incorrect Ballot Papers

Postby julk » 21 Dec 2010, 4:20pm

Still not arrived, but mail and parcels seem to be about a fortnight late here when they do arrive.

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admin
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Re: Incorrect Ballot Papers

Postby admin » 22 Dec 2010, 3:53pm

I received a "duplicate family member" replacement ballot form in the post today. But my original family form didn't have any errors, and I've already posted that one.

The letter accompanying the form said that the error had been caused by the printer, and that the printer was covering all costs associated with having to re-print and post the new forms.

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robgul
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Re: Incorrect Ballot Papers

Postby robgul » 22 Dec 2010, 4:02pm

This is becoming farcical.

The printer "... covering all costs associated with having to re-print and post the new forms .." is really the least important issue here.

The integrity of the whole voting process is in doubt and I would reiterate the post I made on 9 December in this thread - a complete restart is the ONLY option left to sort the mess out with certainty of accuracy.

Rob

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julk
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Re: Incorrect Ballot Papers

Postby julk » 23 Dec 2010, 3:45pm

My replacement voting form arrived today, now to vote...

slugbike
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Joined: 15 May 2009, 11:45am

Re: Incorrect Ballot Papers

Postby slugbike » 30 Dec 2010, 7:43pm

OK I'm a new member ... joined just before Christmas .... ie AFTER they found out about the errors in the system.
Re: Incorrect Ballot Papers
by Kevin Mayne » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:38 am

As promised I said I would report on the progress with any ballot errors.

Other than the printer error with family members described above the total number of other errors notified to us to date is 15.


So make that 16 if you like.... (no duplicate name on ours).


As far as I'm aware I took out family membership for all 5 members of the family (3 children 9-15) - certainly gave in all our details and DOB's etc. We have a voting slip with just one name on it. We have sent off an email but since he is out of office until the 4th Jan we haven't had a reply.

Can't say that it's a great first impression of how organised the CTC is that they can get this wrong AFTER they know there is a problem in the system.

JohnW
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Re: Incorrect Ballot Papers

Postby JohnW » 4 Jan 2011, 12:28am

My voting paper arrived with "Cycle", and was incorrect.

I'm brassed off with this whole thing - a slight switch in tone, and the whole sad saga would send a theatre audience at a Farce wild with laughter.

Before Christmas I returned my incorrect voting paper, registering my wife's and my own votes, and advising that the fifth member of my family has never existed and the other two on the voting paper, my daughters, are no longer eligable to be family members let alone to vote. I know for a fact that the club already knew that at least my eldest daughter wasn't eligable for family membership, because they wrote and told me so.

Now the master-stroke. I have just received a duplicate voting paper. What do I do now? Does the issue of this duplicate voting paper mean that my original voting paper is not eligable and it will be destroyed and my votes not counted? If I conclude that is the case, then do I use the replacement voting paper and submit that? - even though it's wrong? If I do that, will I be accused of skulduggery for trying to vote twice and corrupt the decision? If I don't vote again, will my original voting paper be ignored and destroyed as invalid, thus depriving me of my vote?

On December 9th, Clarion wrote on this Forum : "I feel I must agree that the possbilities for error are too large now, and the vote should be abandoned and re-held". Absolutely my dear chap!

This is ridiculous - if the vote goes in favour of charity status, what will the charity commissioners say when they hear about this whole sorry story?

Any advice from high authority?

My advice is that this leaking ship needs a new hull before it sets to sail rough seas - a few patches on a leaking tub will not weather future storms. (By leaking ship, I mean this process and membership records - I don't mean the club in general - please don't misunderstand).

Only a full review of every member and a complete new start of this process can be considered valid. But then, will we be able to be absolutely confident that it has all been "got right" even then?

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gaz
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Re: Incorrect Ballot Papers

Postby gaz » 5 Jan 2011, 8:06pm

JohnW wrote:Does the issue of this duplicate voting paper mean that my original voting paper is not eligable and it will be destroyed and my votes not counted? If I conclude that is the case, then do I use the replacement voting paper and submit that? - even though it's wrong? If I do that, will I be accused of skulduggery for trying to vote twice and corrupt the decision? If I don't vote again, will my original voting paper be ignored and destroyed as invalid, thus depriving me of my vote?
...

Any advice from high authority?


I have no authority, try this from the CTC website. My unauthoratitiave emphasis. :wink:

All affected voting papers have been identified, and the printer has agreed to issue replacement voting papers in a way that means that they can easily be identified so that votes are not duplicated. Any member affected by this error should receive a new voting paper shortly. If you have already voted by deleting a duplicate name, your vote will be accepted as valid and counted. Alternatively, please vote using the replacement form.


I don't know at what point additional amendments to a form may render it invalid, if in doubt about your form contact Peter Jackson for guidance.
2020 : To redundancy ... and beyond!

JohnW
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Re: Incorrect Ballot Papers

Postby JohnW » 6 Jan 2011, 1:19am

Thank you gaz.

swansonj
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Re: Incorrect Ballot Papers

Postby swansonj » 7 Jan 2011, 9:44am

By coincidence, the Union I belong to at work has just balloted members on industrial action. The ballot was conducted by the Electoral Reform Services and I have just seen the letter of assurance they provide with the results. The actual wording of the key phrase they use is:

"We are satisfied that ... the arrangements made with respect to the production, storage, distribution, return or other handling of the voting papers used in the ballot, and the arrangements for counting of the votes, included all such security arrangements as were reasonably practicable for the purpose of minimising the risk that any unfairness or malpractice might occur."

Incidentally, I still haven't receoved my replacement ballot paper.

John

JohnW
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Re: Incorrect Ballot Papers

Postby JohnW » 9 Jan 2011, 7:03pm

swansonj wrote:
Incidentally, I still haven't received my replacement ballot paper.

John


One of our section hasn't received one at all - or hadn't just before Christmas. I don't know whether he's taken the matter up with the club, or not; that's for him to do of course, none of my business, but it makes you think.