CTC Charity Application Rejected

A place to discuss the issues relating to the proposed change in the national CTC’s structure.
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Si
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Re: CTC Charity Application Rejected

Postby Si » 9 Nov 2011, 9:31am

This seems an apt moment to again remind users that we expect all debate concerning this issue, or any other, to remain respectful and polite. Character assassination, petty sniping or tangential inferences of wrong-doing will not be tolerated. If you are going to accuse somebody of something then you batter a) produce evidence to back it up, b) have a good reason to make that accusation, a reason that is beneficial to the CTC, and c) word that accusation in as neutral way as possible - dressing it up in emotive language or name calling will just make you look like you are acting out your private agenda and take focus away from the real issues.

This reminder goes out to people on all sides of the Charity Conversion fence, and to everyone, no matter whether you are one of the rank'n'file membership (who make the CTC the great organisation it is), a CTC volunteer, a paid employee of the CTC, or even someone who is not a member but would still like to comment on the situation. This has been a difficult topic to oversee as moderators (but, based on the tone of some of the posts in the past: one that defiantly needed moderation to stop it turning into a futile flame war), but we do try to moderate this extremely delicate issue as neutrally as possible and have in the past removed or amended posts from all sides of the argument. If you would like to discuss the moderation policy concerning the Charity Conversion, please start a new thread so as not to risk sending this one off topic.

I thank you.

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Re: CTC Charity Application Rejected

Postby TonyR » 9 Nov 2011, 10:55am

I'm ambivalent on which way the CTC goes so am going to offer some comment on this thread for what its worth as a neutral observer with some experience of the charitable sector and organisational politics.

It does seem to me that with a vote of 88.3% in favour (I've just had to look it up) the mandate has been strongly given to pursue the charitable route. Reading through this thread its clear that some feel very strongly that was the wrong outcome but their view did not prevail by a large margin. Some of that is clearly turning now into willing the CTC to fail for the told you so opportunity and wanting access to every last detail to pore over looking for ammunition.

"Keep calm dear" comes to mind. Its not unsurprising there has been a problem crop up - the Charities Act 2006 made a lot of changes to the way the charities and the Charity Commission operate particularly around trading activities and they are still working it through. In another completely different area that I have experience of it took over two years of negotiations with the CC and HMRC just to get guidance issued on how the new laws should be interpreted in relation to what counted as charitable and non-charitable activities and that was for a charity massively larger than the CTC that was able to get CC/HMRC's attention. The Charity Commission and advisers are still trying to navigate through the uncertainty and a smooth downhill road to the destination should not be expected.

So please lets respect the decision of the majority and give the CTC management the chance to get on with the mandate they have been given without making a massive deal out of every bump or rise in the road in an attempt to derail or reverse a democratic decision.

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Re: CTC Charity Application Rejected

Postby meic » 9 Nov 2011, 11:16am

TonyR wrote:I'm ambivalent on which way the CTC goes so am going to offer some comment on this thread for what its worth as a neutral observer with some experience of the charitable sector and organisational politics.

It does seem to me that with a vote of 88.3% in favour of Goretex jackets (I've just had to look it up) the mandate has been strongly given to pursue the charitable route. Reading through this thread its clear that some feel very strongly that was the wrong outcome but their view did not prevail by a large margin. Some of that is clearly turning now into willing the CTC to fail for the told you so opportunity and wanting access to every last detail to pore over looking for ammunition.

"Keep calm dear" comes to mind. Its not unsurprising there has been a problem crop up - the Charities Act 2006 made a lot of changes to the way the charities and the Charity Commission operate particularly around trading activities and they are still working it through. In another completely different area that I have experience of it took over two years of negotiations with the CC and HMRC just to get guidance issued on how the new laws should be interpreted in relation to what counted as charitable and non-charitable activities and that was for a charity massively larger than the CTC that was able to get CC/HMRC's attention. The Charity Commission and advisers are still trying to navigate through the uncertainty and a smooth downhill road to the destination should not be expected.

So please lets respect the decision of the majority (the ones who didnt bother voting at all?) and give the CTC management the chance to get on with the mandate they have been given without making a massive deal out of every bump or rise in the road in an attempt to derail or reverse a democratic decision*.


:lol: :lol:


* I think the democratic decision was a rather overwhelming "WHO CARES"
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Re: CTC Charity Application Rejected

Postby Edwards » 9 Nov 2011, 12:19pm

If people did not vote so what, they do not count. That is the way these things work and always have. The result of those who wanted to be involved is clear and by a reasonable majority.
Unless those one side of this are now claiming that the jacket was only available to those who voted in a particular way it is of no consequence (In the past I made a joke about the jacket only being available to those who voted in a certain way).

It would now appear that some who did not want the change are very bad losers and are clinging to anything that is possible to keep having a go.

Is it not time to let it drop?
If you do not like the result why not move on?

Edited to clarify about the jacket.
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Re: CTC Charity Application Rejected

Postby Regulator » 9 Nov 2011, 12:46pm

Edwards wrote:If people did not vote so what, they do not count. That is the way these things work and always have. The result of those who wanted to be involved is clear and by a reasonable majority.
Unless those one side of this are now claiming that the jacket was only available to those who voted in a particular way it is of no consequence (In the past I made a joke about the jacket only being available to those who voted in a certain way).

It would now appear that some who did not want the change are very bad losers and are clinging to anything that is possible to keep having a go.

Is it not time to let it drop?
If you do not like the result why not move on?

Edited to clarify about the jacket.


I disagree. I think what some people are doing out is pointing out that the very issues they were flagging before the votes, which National Office and certain members of Council suggested were unthinkable or irrelevant, are now coming back to bite CTC in its collective derriere.

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Re: CTC Charity Application Rejected

Postby meic » 9 Nov 2011, 1:16pm

Edwards wrote:If people did not vote so what, they do not count. That is the way these things work and always have. The result of those who wanted to be involved is clear and by a reasonable majority.
Unless those one side of this are now claiming that the jacket was only available to those who voted in a particular way it is of no consequence (In the past I made a joke about the jacket only being available to those who voted in a certain way).


I totally agree, the vote is finished and the result is now, I think, final.

Edwards wrote:It would now appear that some who did not want the change are very bad losers and are clinging to anything that is possible to keep having a go.


Not at all, just what was written in that post was mis-representing the reality of what actually happened. So I thought I would "de-spin" it with a small dose of truth.

Edwards wrote:Is it not time to let it drop?
If you do not like the result why not move on?


There had been no posting in that forum for months, it had been dropped and people had moved on. Doesnt mean that we should be gagged though. :wink:

PS: If you dig a little you will even find a request from me after things died down that the forum be filed away in some historical corner, out of sight and out of mind.
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Re: CTC Charity Application Rejected

Postby thirdcrank » 9 Nov 2011, 1:55pm

Edwards

I think you are completely wrong. Everybody is entitled to comment on this, without regard to their connection with the CTC or this debate. The CTC implies that it speaks for all cyclists, so it will have to listen to them (or at least be aware of what's cauing all that irritating buzzing, even though fingers may plugged in ears.) This is even more so with regard to that part of the CTC which is already a charity (apparently the whole lot as far as Scotland is concerned.) Anything which must, by law, be conducted for a public benefit, is open to public scrutiny and comment.

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Re: CTC Charity Application Rejected

Postby Si » 9 Nov 2011, 2:13pm

I can sympathise with both ways of looking at it. The fact that things have not yet progressed as they should have done with the English side of things is a legitimate issue of concern. It may very well be that, as hinted at earlier, it is just a technicality - but if this is the case we (da membership) should still be informed as to what is going on, just to scotch any rumours of calamity if nothing else.

But from the other point of view....erring towards what Edwards says, let us not schedule the end of days for next Tuesday, at least not until we know exactly what has happened. There is a risk, when talking about continuing or new problems with the conversion, that if one tries to re-cover some of the old ground or bring up other issues, then one might sound like one is just trying to stir things if one is not very careful in how one phrases one's comments.

I believe that cool, clear, calm, concise communications from all sides would aid the situation somewhat, and would be to the general benefit of the CTC (which is what we all want isn't it?).

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Re: CTC Charity Application Rejected

Postby Mick F » 9 Nov 2011, 2:21pm

meic wrote:I think the democratic decision was a rather overwhelming "WHO CARES"
Very true.
However, if the majority don't vote, it shouldn't give the management the mandate to do anything they or the minority want.

We're back to the argument from before. What is democracy without voters?
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: CTC Charity Application Rejected

Postby Edwards » 9 Nov 2011, 3:03pm

If you read some of my old posts on this subject it is clear I had serious misgivings about the merger. I asked questions and was not convinced by the replies, some of my doubts have been correct.
I am not suggesting that the whole thing is over by a long way and have agreed with Meic about most of his points.
It is the way the change over and its problems are being reported and some of the remarks that do not sit well with me.

I have accepted the merger as that is the result of the vote and hope that the whole organisation does not self implode with some sections seeming to enjoy every problem, looking for blame not solutions. I am in no way saying there should not be a debate however I feel what this subject has become personal for some, which is a pity.
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Re: CTC Charity Application Rejected

Postby Steady rider » 13 Nov 2011, 3:46pm

Far from smooth sailing.

My impression is gaining the status in England and Wales should probably have come first.
Now the articles may need changing and if accepted in England and Wales, would then need resubmitting to Scotland perhaps.

It may be worth adding an aim, 'to assist Sustrans in developing good quality cycle routes' by using the local knowledge of the 50k existing membership. It would be possible to provide examples that are currently taking place. Local circular routes on existing minor roads, could be promoted directly by the CTC, cycling touring circular routes. The CTC may be able to contribute to the cost of signs or by having fund raising rides.

One function the CTC could provide is to monitor the condition of cycle routes, standard and signs, with feedback from members on each route, via a forum link. Any safety issues or repairs needed could be quickly considered by having the CTC involved.

Additionally it may be possible for the CTC to have clean up teams where sufficient support existed, to tidy up routes. with funding being very tight help from CTC members would be a valuable contributions to the community. Similar with fill the pothole, CTC helping to make cycling safer.

A large number of trustees may be best to ensure all parts of the CTC are included.

Good luck

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CTC Charity Application and Letter

Postby CTC London » 21 Nov 2011, 4:43pm

This is the letter of acceptance for charitable status in Scotland


THIS DOCUMENT IS IMPORTANT PLEASE RETAIN IT FOR YOUR RECORDS

Please ensure all charity trustees are aware of this document



Professor David Cox
Cyclists Touring Club
Parklands
Railton Road
Guildford
GU2 9JX

Your ref:
Our ref: RS/STA/11-0742


30 August 2011

Dear Professor Cox

Decision on your application to become a charity

I am pleased to tell you that the Office of the Scottish Charity Regulator (OSCR) is satisfied that your organisation meets the charity test, and has entered it in the Scottish Charity Register. This means it now has charitable status under the Charities and Trustee Investment (Scotland) Act 2005.

The details of your charity’s entry in the Register are set out below.
Please check these details and let us know of any errors.

Your charity’s registered name is: Cyclists Touring Club
Your charity number is: SC042541
Your charity was registered on: 29 August 2011
Your charity’s ‘known as’ name is: CTC

Your principal contact address is:Parklands Railton Road Guildford GU2 9JX

Your charitable purposes are:

B - the advancement of education

H - the advancement of public participation in sport

I - the provision of recreational facilities, or the organisation of recreational activities, with the object of improving the conditions of life for the persons for whom the facilities or activities are primarily intended.

Your charitable objects are:

To promote cycling, cycle touring, and fellowship between cyclists for the public benefit as a means of furthering the following charitable purposes:-

1.8.1 the advancement of amateur sports which involve physical or mental skill or exertion by:

1.8.1.1 promoting, assisting and protecting the use of bicycles, tricycles and other similar vehicles on the public roads and public rights of way; and

1.8.1.2 promoting and safeguarding the interests of riders of bicycles, tricycles and other similar vehicles (hereinafter referred to as "cyclists"); and

1.8.1.3 encouraging cycling and cycle touring as a means of adventure, recreation, character training and other forms of education, to stimulate by all possible means interest and participation, and in particular the interest and participation of young persons, in cycling, and to promote cycling competitions, rallies, rides and other events;

1.8.2 the promotion of the conservation and protection of the environment by any charitable means including, but not limited to:

1.8.1.1 promoting and increasing appreciation of the countryside and places of public interest, and

1.8.2.2 establishing and protecting access thereto by cycle and on foot, and

1.8.2.3 preserving and improving amenities, and

1.8.2.4 taking appropriate action to advance this charitable aim in Parliament and in and before Government departments, local and other public authorities, bodies and officers, landowners, developers and others;

1.8.3 the advancement of education by any charitable means including, but not limited to, education in road usage, road safety and in particular the safety of cyclists, and the promotion of any plans, measures, schemes or proposals designed to that end;

1.8.4 the preservation and protection of the health and safety of the public by encouraging and facilitating cycling by any means including, but not limited to, the provision of legal assistance for the riders of bicycles, tricycles and other similar vehicles in the enforcement of their rights to use the public roads and public rights of way;

1.8.5 the promotion of cycling, including cycle touring, as an amateur sport by catering for the needs of cyclists by collecting and furnishing information for the planning and conduct of cycling tours, publishing and supplying books, routes, guides, brochures, accommodation lists, maps, periodicals and newspapers, badges and emblems, by arranging for insurance and any necessary documentation, and to organise and conduct cycle tours both at home and overseas and make all appropriate arrangements for participants therein, and to promote and safeguard the interests of cyclists in all such ways as the conditions of the times may render desirable;

1.8.6 the promotion of community participation in healthy recreation in the interests of social welfare.

Your charity’s financial year-end date is: 30/09


Charity trustees’ duties and responsibilities

The charity trustees of Cyclists Touring Club are jointly responsible for running the charity and managing its assets. By law they must do certain things, such as the following:

Publicise its charitable status and provide information to the public: you must let people know that Cyclists Touring Club is a charity by including its charity name and charity number on its literature, emails and web pages, and also on documents issued by a third party on the charity’s behalf. You have six months from the date of this letter to comply with the duty to publicise the charity’s status. You must also supply a copy of your accounts and constitution to anyone who asks for them. You can find full details of these duties on our website in the section on charity trustees’ duties.

• Annual monitoring: every year, you must provide information to us about the activities of your charity, and by law we must monitor all charities on the Register. Your charity must fill in an Annual Return form and send this to us along with its accounts. You can find out more about preparing your accounts and reporting to us on our website http://www.oscr.org.uk.

• Making changes to the charity: you need to get our consent before taking certain actions, and must tell us about certain decisions you have taken. You can find out when and how to do this on the ‘Making changes to your charity’ section on our website.

Your charity may be able to claim some forms of tax relief. The enclosed leaflet from HM Revenue & Customs provides more detail. Please note that OSCR does not deal with tax matters.

Please distribute this letter and the enclosed introductory leaflet on ‘Being a charity in Scotland’ to all your charity trustees. You can contact us at info@oscr.org.uk or on 01382 220446 if you have any questions.

Yours sincerely

Joyce Lowson
Charities Team Case Officer
Tel 01382 346867
Joyce.lowson@oscr.org.uk



If you wish to see the CTC application for charitable status in Scotland please go to

CTC LONDON YAHOO GROUP

Due to their size and configuration, I am unable to place the text on this site, so you will need to join CTC London yahoo group to se the document or alternately email

ctclondon@yahoogroups.co.uk


CTC LONDON YAHOO GROUP?

JOIN NOW AT http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/ctclondon

EMAIL TO ctclondon@yahoogroups.co.uk

In addition, look for

2011-07-28 App for status Scotland CTC redactions.pdf
Philip Benstead
Secretary
CTC London – Working to promote the use of the cycle as a means of utility, transport or leisure for ALL.
Email to ctclondon@yahoogroups.co.uk
CTC London Twitter: @CTCLondon)

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Philip Benstead
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Re: CTC Charity Application Rejected

Postby Philip Benstead » 22 Dec 2011, 11:02pm

Steady rider wrote:Far from smooth sailing.

My impression is gaining the status in England and Wales should probably have come first.
Now the articles may need changing and if accepted in England and Wales, would then need resubmitting to Scotland perhaps.




I wonder what is happening, since I understand the Article of Association were not up to CC standard is the council going to rewrite them , does this mean we will have to vote on them again at the AGM.

I understand that Charity commission did not like the phase good fellowship, that sum up what CTC is about at local level, does this mean we are to member focus and the non-member is not getting anything from the CTC
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Re: CTC Charity Application Rejected

Postby Regulator » 23 Dec 2011, 7:29am

What concerns me is that all the members of Council (who are the directors of CTC) haven't yet been given a copy of the letter from the Charity Commission rejecting the application. One does have to wonder what the Chief Executive and Chairman are so concerned about?

Witholding information is poor governance on the part of CTC...

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meic
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Re: CTC Charity Application Rejected

Postby meic » 26 Jan 2012, 12:21pm

Si wrote:I can sympathise with both ways of looking at it. The fact that things have not yet progressed as they should have done with the English side of things is a legitimate issue of concern. It may very well be that, as hinted at earlier, it is just a technicality - but if this is the case we (da membership) should still be informed as to what is going on, just to scotch any rumours of calamity if nothing else.

But from the other point of view....erring towards what Edwards says, let us not schedule the end of days for next Tuesday, at least not until we know exactly what has happened. There is a risk, when talking about continuing or new problems with the conversion, that if one tries to re-cover some of the old ground or bring up other issues, then one might sound like one is just trying to stir things if one is not very careful in how one phrases one's comments.

I believe that cool, clear, calm, concise communications from all sides would aid the situation somewhat, and would be to the general benefit of the CTC (which is what we all want isn't it?).


Well I have just scanned through the Feb/Mar Cycle magazine and they are saying,... Nothing!
Yma o Hyd