Report on the progress of CTC charity application 2012 Jan 6

A place to discuss the issues relating to the proposed change in the national CTC’s structure.
User avatar
Philip Benstead
Posts: 1147
Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 7:06pm
Location: Victoria , London

Report on the progress of CTC charity application 2012 Jan 6

Postby Philip Benstead » 5 Jan 2012, 2:20pm

Report on the progress of CTC charity application 2012 Jan 6.doc (ver 2)

Cyclists’ Touring Club

CTC Council progress to convert the CTC into a charity.

Dear CTC Members

You may remember at CTC AGM 2011 A motion was passed that stated “This AGM authorises Council to take the steps necessary to register the Club as a charity with the Charity Commission for England and Wales, the Office of the Scottish Charity Regulator and the Charity Commission for Northern Ireland and to merge the Club with CTC Charitable Trust to become a single, charitable organisation.”

Please find below the text of an email that rejected the application for CTC charitable status in England and Wales it was received by CTC Headquarters on 18th October 2011.

The original letter can be found at

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BDr ... 4x5UE/edit

Please place this link in your browsers; you do not need a Google mail account to view.

At bottom of this email are additional links below that give you access to suggest on what you can do and other documentation if need.

The rejection letter etc has not been seem by most Director/Trustees of the CTC, why is this?

WHAT CAN YOU DO? Look at the end of the letter for suggestions.

This letter etc has been sent to CTC local group offices in UK and uploaded to CTC Forum, YACF, and Cycle Chat and Google UK rec. discussion forum under the title

Report on the progress of CTC charity application 2012 Jan 6

Apologies if this is an unwanted email or you have received duplicates, it is important, but if you do not wish to receive any additional email on this subject reply with unsubscribe in the subject line.

I would be grateful for an acknowledgement of safe receipt.

Philip Benstead

START OF REJECTION LETTER

CHARITY COMMISSION FOR ENGLAND AND WALES

Title 0/5020287/331958 Application for registration: The Cyclists' Touring Club CC: 00361617

Subject Cyclist's Touring Club FAO: Caroline Jones - W/5020287/331958 Application for registration: The Cyclists' Touring Club CC: 0036151

Dear’

Further to my email of 06 October, we have completed our review of the application and supporting information.

I have explained in correspondence with ?????? that in order to be established as a charity an organisation must have objects which are exclusively charitable and for the public benefit. If any part of the objects of an organisation are not charitable or if it is established in part for private benefit then it is not established as a charity.

In this case, the meaning of the objects is not entirely clear and in determining their meaning, it may be appropriate to consider the activities undertaken by the organisation. Our guidance in 'Charities and Public Benefit' sets out our approach in such cases from section D4.

Objects

The objects of the company set out an initial object 'to promote cycling, cycle touring and fellowship among cyclists for the public benefit' but describe those objects as a means to further other charitable purposes.

The first further object is then stated as: the advancement of amateur sports which involve physical or mental skills or exertion by:

Promoting, assisting and protecting the use of bicycles, tricycles and other similar vehicles on the public roads and public rights of way;
and
Promoting and safeguarding the interests of riders of bicycles, tricycles and other similar vehicles;
and
Encouraging cycling and cycle touring as a means of adventure, recreation, character training and other forms of education, to stimulate by any possible means interest and participation in the interest and participation of young persons in cycling, and to promote cycling competitions, rallies, rides and other events.

It is difficult to understand precisely from the drafting of the objects which elements or subsections of the objects may be considered as objects of themselves and which elements a means to achieve objects.

It is also the case that not every means of advancing amateur sport will be for the public benefit. For example promoting the individual rights and interests of cyclists may be directed to the private benefit of cyclists.
Given the structure of the clause neither is it beyond doubt that the first stated object of promoting cycling, cycle touring and fellowship among cyclists for the public benefit is simply a means.

The second sub object is stated as:

The promotion of the conservation and protection of the environment by any charitable means including but not limited to

Promoting and increasing appreciation of the countryside and places of public interest,
and
Establishing and protecting access thereto by cycle and on foot, and Preserving and improving amenities,
and
Taking appropriate action to advance this charitable aim in Parliament and in and before Government departments, local and other public authorities, bodies and officers, landowners, developers and others

The first and fourth of the means are political activities, which extend to securing or opposing any change in the law or in the policy or decisions of central government or local authorities. The extent to which such means are directed towards conservation or the protection of the environment or other activities which the company will undertake in that respect is not apparent. The political activity would appear to be an object of its own right rather than subsidiary and in support of other activities undertaken in furtherance of a charitable purpose. A charity may not have a political purpose.

Our guidance in CC9 'Speaking Out' sets out the principles on this point in summary at section B.

http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/pub ... s/cc9.aspx

Clause 1.8.3 is for the advancement of education ..and the promotion of any plans, measures schemes or proposals to that end.. The promotion of particular opinions, views or proposals is not education in the sense accepted by charity law.

Our guidance in 'The Advancement of Education for the Public Benefit' sets this out from section C5.
http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/Lib ... du1208.pdf

Clause 1.8.4 is for the preservation and protection of health ... by any means. The reference to 'any means' would extend beyond that which would confine the object of public benefit. It would allow either unlawful, private or political objects. Indeed the enforcement of rights as referenced in the wording may be capable of being either of private benefit or political.

Clause 1.8.5 is for the promotion of cycling ... Catering for the needs of cyclists would appear to extend beyond what is charitable, for example for provision of facilities in the interests of social welfare, and is directed towards private benefit of cyclists. The further provision of benefits appears to be of a private nature.

Activities

I have outlined the ambiguous nature of the objects. The company has existed as an organisation to benefit and promote the interests of its members. The website refers at 'Converting CTC to a Charity' to 'supporting membership and campaigning' as its charitable activities.

There appears to be a misunderstanding of as to the nature of charitable purposes and public benefit. An organisation established to provide benefits for its members is not a charity being directed towards private benefit. The 2006 Act has not changed the nature of public in public benefit (as suggested on the company's website). Similarly, the campaigning appears in part to be directed towards political purposes which cannot be a charitable purpose.

The Club has established a charitable organisation to undertake such of its work as is directed towards charitable purposes.

However the Club itself is not established for exclusively charitable purposes for the public benefit. It is a members' organisation established to promote the interests of its members and provide them with benefit. It is not therefore established for exclusively charitable purposes or the public benefit.

Summary

I am sorry to tell you that, for the reasons given above, we feel bound to reject the application for registration. Our decision has taken account of all information, evidence and argument received.

If you think our decision is wrong, you can ask us to review it by writing to the Final Decision and Tribunal Coordinator at
enquiries@charitvcommission.asi.nov.uk,

or by using our online application form at

http://www.charitvcommission.gov.uk/reviewprocform.aspx

Alternatively, you may appeal against our decision to the First-Tier Tribunal (Charity).

Further details about our decision review procedure and the First-Tier Tribunal (Charity) can be found on our website at
http://www.charitv-commission.gov.uklAb ... r_decision index.aspx

Yours sincerely
Caroline Jones
Registration Division
Tel: 01 823 345458
Fax: 01823 345003
http://www.charitvcommission.aov.uk


END OF REJECTION LETTER

WHAT CAN YOU DO?

For more information go to

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B7xjRG ... M5MTJhNDcz

END


Philip Benstead

Telephone: 020-7630-0475
Mobile: 0794-980-1698
Email: philipbenstead1@gmail.com

Address: Victoria,
London, SW1P 1PG

END

Thank you for your help in this matter.

Philip Benstead

CTC Member

Telephone: 020-7630-0475
Mobile: 0794-980-1698
Email: philipbenstead1@gmail.com

Address:Victoria,
London, SW1P 1PG
Last edited by Philip Benstead on 13 Jan 2012, 10:30pm, edited 1 time in total.
Philip Benstead | CTC London and FORMER CTC Councillor SE
| 0794-980-1698 | philipbenstead1@gmail.com |
Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988
Cycle Ride? http://www.meetup.com/socialcycling4u/
Bikeability Instructor/Mechanic

User avatar
Si
Moderator
Posts: 14764
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 7:37pm

Re: Report on the progress of CTC charity application 2012 J

Postby Si » 5 Jan 2012, 4:00pm

Sort of supports my reservation about the Charity Conversion. Not that it was necessarily a bad thing, but that we didn't understand it well enough to make a sound judgement as to whether it was a good thing or not, or whether we could actually do it....thus we should have waited and done more research.

Of course, it has been said that these problems are only a case of rewording, and I'm perfectly happy to admit that I have little idea of the protocols with these things, but to my unenlightened eye it does look like this is a major issue rather than just a bit of text that needs tidying. We might suggest that it may be safest if we just resumed being a membership club until really did understand the process properly, but as we have been accepted in Scotland as a charity, can we still do that?

User avatar
Simon L6
Posts: 1382
Joined: 4 Jan 2007, 12:43pm

Re: Report on the progress of CTC charity application 2012 J

Postby Simon L6 » 5 Jan 2012, 5:03pm

pretty much complete vindication for the savethectc campaign - albeit rather too late in the day. It's sad that members only get to look at this thanks to Philip's efforts.
http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/report ... st-1668929

User avatar
Philip Benstead
Posts: 1147
Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 7:06pm
Location: Victoria , London

URGENT Deadline for AGM 2012

Postby Philip Benstead » 5 Jan 2012, 5:33pm

Dear CTC Members

I feel sure that many of you would like to express an opinion on the running of the CTC.


Therefore I would like to draw to your attention that the deadline for motions for the CTC AGM 2012.

The motions must reach the Mr. Kevin Mayne, CTC Chief Executive by Wednesday 1st February 2012.

Mr. Kevin Mayne
Chief Executive
CTC, Parklands,
Railton Road,
Guildford,
Surrey, GU2 9JX


kevin.mayne@ctc.org.uk


cc
Sue Cherry
Personal Assistant to the Director
sue.cherry@ctc.org.uk
Philip Benstead | CTC London and FORMER CTC Councillor SE
| 0794-980-1698 | philipbenstead1@gmail.com |
Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988
Cycle Ride? http://www.meetup.com/socialcycling4u/
Bikeability Instructor/Mechanic


Malaconotus
Posts: 1842
Joined: 30 Jul 2010, 11:31pm
Location: Chapel Allerton, Leeds

Re: Report on the progress of CTC charity application 2012 J

Postby Malaconotus » 5 Jan 2012, 5:42pm

A reminder of what was claimed regarding this rejection...

Statement from Kevin Mayne to MG AND AGM

The Charity Commission have rejected that first application because they have some concerns that we will need to address before we can go ahead. The Charity Commission has undergone significant change recently with significantly reduced staff and it appears they are more inclined to reject applications quickly rather than allow charities time to negotiate or amend applications.

Apparently our decision to make minimum changes needed for charitable status in our rather old Memorandum and Articles of Association (our constitution) leaves them looking rather out of step with modern practice. Also we have not updated our old website to accurately present the charitable nature of our work. We had planned to do this when the new site was built and after we had feedback from the regulators but this was not acceptable.

Therefore the Commission’s officers have told us that they will not approve the current application. So we have some more work to do. We are going to take some additional advice about the best way forward from here, including how we handle the different approaches taken by the Scottish and English regulators.


I just can't square this with the letter from the Charity Commission, which appears to me to say you can't become a charity because you're not doing charitable work. They don't seem to be looking for the application to be refined; they seem to be wondering why it was even made.

User avatar
meic
Posts: 18492
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Re: Report on the progress of CTC charity application 2012 J

Postby meic » 5 Jan 2012, 7:52pm

The letter of rejection states,

"However the Club itself is not established for exclusively charitable purposes for the public benefit. It is a members' organisation established to promote the interests of its members and provide them with benefit. It is not therefore established for exclusively charitable purposes or the public benefit."

which is just the way I would like it to stay. :D
Yma o Hyd

Regulator
Posts: 523
Joined: 27 Jan 2007, 10:13am

Re: Report on the progress of CTC charity application 2012 J

Postby Regulator » 5 Jan 2012, 7:55pm

Malaconotus wrote:A reminder of what was claimed regarding this rejection...

Statement from Kevin Mayne to MG AND AGM

The Charity Commission have rejected that first application because they have some concerns that we will need to address before we can go ahead. The Charity Commission has undergone significant change recently with significantly reduced staff and it appears they are more inclined to reject applications quickly rather than allow charities time to negotiate or amend applications.

Apparently our decision to make minimum changes needed for charitable status in our rather old Memorandum and Articles of Association (our constitution) leaves them looking rather out of step with modern practice. Also we have not updated our old website to accurately present the charitable nature of our work. We had planned to do this when the new site was built and after we had feedback from the regulators but this was not acceptable.

Therefore the Commission’s officers have told us that they will not approve the current application. So we have some more work to do. We are going to take some additional advice about the best way forward from here, including how we handle the different approaches taken by the Scottish and English regulators.


I just can't square this with the letter from the Charity Commission, which appears to me to say you can't become a charity because you're not doing charitable work. They don't seem to be looking for the application to be refined; they seem to be wondering why it was even made.



You seriously believe that The Clique would be honest about the reasons? :wink: They haven't even ensured that all the Councillors, who are the legally accountable directors of the Club, have been given a copy of the email - they're getting it from us.

Kevin tries to claim that these are minor issues and that it's all to do with changes in the Charity Commission - but the reality is that what the 'No' campaign were saying all along was correct.

Frankly, if the Chair of Council and those members of Council who pushed this move have any integrity and respect for members they should be considering their positions.

Karen Sutton
Posts: 608
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 11:18pm
Location: Greater Manchester

Re: Report on the progress of CTC charity application 2012 J

Postby Karen Sutton » 5 Jan 2012, 8:57pm

Si wrote:Sort of supports my reservation about the Charity Conversion. Not that it was necessarily a bad thing, but that we didn't understand it well enough to make a sound judgement as to whether it was a good thing or not, or whether we could actually do it....thus we should have waited and done more research.

Of course, it has been said that these problems are only a case of rewording, and I'm perfectly happy to admit that I have little idea of the protocols with these things, but to my unenlightened eye it does look like this is a major issue rather than just a bit of text that needs tidying.


The main issue I can see is that the Member Groups would have to be disassociated from CTC if it was to be successful in registering as a Charity. This was a point I raised in the previous thread about the Charity application being rejected. I said that I had for a long time suspected that the MGs would opne day be forced to operate separately from CTC and would have to affiliate to CTC (or some other body) in order to get Insurance for Activities and Organisers. This is what YHA did with their Groups some years ago. If it happened to CTC MGs all funding to them would have to cease.

(see page 4 on here: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=56857&start=45)

GPC
Posts: 74
Joined: 8 Aug 2008, 8:13am

Re: Report on the progress of CTC charity application 2012 J

Postby GPC » 5 Jan 2012, 9:12pm

While I have remained outwith the public debate on this issue to date, given the nature of the information posted in this topic can I request a response from a representative of council soonest please.

irc
Posts: 4303
Joined: 3 Dec 2008, 2:22pm
Location: glasgow

Re: Report on the progress of CTC charity application 2012 J

Postby irc » 5 Jan 2012, 9:19pm

meic wrote:The letter of rejection states,

"However the Club itself is not established for exclusively charitable purposes for the public benefit. It is a members' organisation established to promote the interests of its members and provide them with benefit. It is not therefore established for exclusively charitable purposes or the public benefit."



I'm confused with this. I agree the CTC is primarily there to promote the interests of it's members and is not established for exclusively charitable purposes or the public benefit.. Neither is Eton or other private schools yet they are charities. Can someone explain the difference to me.
No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?

Karen Sutton
Posts: 608
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 11:18pm
Location: Greater Manchester

Re: Report on the progress of CTC charity application 2012 J

Postby Karen Sutton » 5 Jan 2012, 9:22pm

Gary Cummins wrote:While I have remained outwith the public debate on this issue to date, given the nature of the information posted in this topic can I request a response from a representative of council soonest please.


Councillors don't routinely look at this forum (some don't look at it at all). You would be better off contacting them direct. The list can be found here:

http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/About_U ... t_List.pdf

User avatar
robgul
Posts: 2633
Joined: 8 Jan 2007, 8:40pm
Contact:

Re: Report on the progress of CTC charity application 2012 J

Postby robgul » 5 Jan 2012, 9:27pm

irc wrote:
meic wrote:The letter of rejection states,

"However the Club itself is not established for exclusively charitable purposes for the public benefit. It is a members' organisation established to promote the interests of its members and provide them with benefit. It is not therefore established for exclusively charitable purposes or the public benefit."



I'm confused with this. I agree the CTC is primarily there to promote the interests of it's members and is not established for exclusively charitable purposes or the public benefit.. Neither is Eton or other private schools yet they are charities. Can someone explain the difference to me.


I can't explain precisely why about Eton etc BUT I think that the charitable status goes way back in legislation and is now difficult to disengage ...AIUI a new application for a "school business" (which is what Eton is) is highly unlikely to be granted charity status today.

Rob

thirdcrank
Posts: 26209
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Report on the progress of CTC charity application 2012 J

Postby thirdcrank » 5 Jan 2012, 9:46pm

meic wrote:The letter of rejection states,

"However the Club itself is not established for exclusively charitable purposes for the public benefit. It is a members' organisation established to promote the interests of its members and provide them with benefit. It is not therefore established for exclusively charitable purposes or the public benefit."

which is just the way I would like it to stay. :D

It's hard to see that the status quo is an option. The greater part of the assets of the CTC now belongs to the Charitable Trust, whose income, in these financially troubled times must presumably depend increasingly on charges to the non-charity bit ie members' subs. Afaik, the non-charity bit cannot get those assets back, and if it decided to stop paying up, meaning that the Charitable Trust ran out of income, then the assets could only be disposed of for charitable purposes. In the meantime, presuming Karen to be correct, if the application is to be pursued, then the CTC would have to jettison the side of the club that is the reason for many being in it, while retaining the membership for the subs to keep the charity afloat.

During the discussions which preceded the votes on this issue, the supporters of the proposal were confident they knew all the answers whenever they posted on here.

It's all gone quiet over there, as they say.

================================================================
I think that the bit about Eton is this. Once an organisation is a charity, and the likes of Eton have had that status for a long time now, they enjoy a certain amount of freedom in the way they carry out their charitable purposes. "Education" is a charitable purpose. Afaik, the Charities Commission has tried and failed to be able to insist on a bit more public benefit in the form of free scholarships etc. It's the difference between running an existing charity and the establishment of a new one.

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 14906
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Report on the progress of CTC charity application 2012 J

Postby Vorpal » 5 Jan 2012, 10:08pm

Can anyone please explain to me, how we can possibly reconcile campaigning and charitable purposes, given the clear response of the charity commission:

A charity may not have a political purpose.


???

It seems to me that while the CTC is a membership organisation, it is also very much a campaigning organisation. Campaigning is the sole reason that I joined the CTC, and I know a number of other cyclists who say the same. We don't need the insurance, as we belong to multiple cycling clubs and/or organisations.

This isn't just a matter of rewording documents. And it doesn't seem to me that splitting off a 'club' (i.e. the member groups) will solve this problem.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom