Helmets in Majorca (split)

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Helmets in Majorca (split)

Postby The utility cyclist » 20 Apr 2017, 10:30pm

old_windbag wrote:I think anyone entering the helmet forum needs the protection of a helmet :) ..... but here goes.

Personally I'd remove the use of fractured skull here and there because this is at the extreme end of head injuries. I think that a bang to the head can make you go "ow" and you get up and get on..... but that is not to say you haven't caused damage that you don't percieve until a few years down the line when you notice a premature decline in cognitive skills or perhaps suffer seizures or mental issues. If wearing a helmet can reduce some of the decelleration that can cause such damage then that isn't a bad reason surely.

Boxers tend not to wear helmets but nor do they suffer fractured skulls........ but a single punch can kill or seriously brain injure you. You don't have to have a career of hits to the head to have that happen. We accumulate damage to our heads through life just as we do damage to skin etc, surely to wear a helmet to reduce some of that damage is like wearing sun cream to reduce the chance of skin cancer. We don't slap that on all of the time but when we do those may be the times that without it we would have caused the damage that leads to problems down the line.

But helmet use is very contentious indeed and polarises people. It's very political.


Except the the ABA had the sense to look at the data and conclude that head gear increased concussions by a very significant factor (for the same reasons cycle helmets do), increases in cuts after removing yes, but they pale into almost insignificance when you are having a large reduction in head trauma/TBIs. So no, wearing a helmet INCREASES the chances of you actually having those micro knocks or even bigger knocks in the first place hence why the statistical evidence is so weak to promote wearing them.

That you add in the fragility of the cycle helmet itself and its inability to prevent anything other than minor abrasions, plus the increase in head size AND adding to that the diverting of responsibility from those presenting the harm in most head injury/death outcomes is exactly why they simply cannot work to prevent and lower head injuries or deaths from such, nor indeed reduce TBIs or even overall injury rates to other parts of the body.
there is simply no short, medium or long term benefit, you've fallen into the trap as many do from individuals. cycling organisations (though I suspect the UCI it was a financial reason) governments and many other official departments of not only failing to understand the actual risk factor but the harm done on an epic scale due to wearing them and the push to make them and hi-vis and other so called 'safety' aids onto the vulnerable.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Helmets in Majorca (split)

Postby [XAP]Bob » 20 Apr 2017, 11:21pm

bigjim wrote:Thing is. Would my head have hit the floor without the extra width of the helmet? Or would I have been in A&E if I had not worn it?

Care to try again?

That's the only way we'd know for sure, but I suggest it's unlikely that you would have hit the top of your head. If you hit the back of your head then there is a fair chance it would have hit anyway, if you hit the side then there is a fair chance that (as when I have come off on ice) the shoulder would have hit the ground and the head would have missed the ground entirely.

But every accident is different - the one thing I can say with reasonable confidence is that the likelihood of a couple of ounces of polystyrene making the difference between 'a few breaths and back on the bike' and 'A&E' are very small indeed.
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Re: Helmets in Majorca (split)

Postby bigjim » 21 Apr 2017, 9:26am

[XAP]Bob wrote:
bigjim wrote:Thing is. Would my head have hit the floor without the extra width of the helmet? Or would I have been in A&E if I had not worn it?

Care to try again?

That's the only way we'd know for sure, but I suggest it's unlikely that you would have hit the top of your head. If you hit the back of your head then there is a fair chance it would have hit anyway, if you hit the side then there is a fair chance that (as when I have come off on ice) the shoulder would have hit the ground and the head would have missed the ground entirely.

But every accident is different - the one thing I can say with reasonable confidence is that the likelihood of a couple of ounces of polystyrene making the difference between 'a few breaths and back on the bike' and 'A&E' are very small indeed.

I will try again then. It was the side of my head that hit the floor with a bang hence my question, as naturally my shoulder would have hit first, although I did fall onto an incline into a gutter.
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mjr
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Re: Helmets in Majorca (split)

Postby mjr » 21 Apr 2017, 12:19pm

bigjim wrote:I will try again then. It was the side of my head that hit the floor with a bang hence my question, as naturally my shoulder would have hit first, although I did fall onto an incline into a gutter.

The side of your head? Or the side of the helmet, which isn't required to be protective or do anything much except help keep the helmet on top of one's head if fitted correctly? (According to BHSI, the tested area starts roughly 55mm above the horizontal plane through the centre of the head.)
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Re: Helmets in Majorca (split)

Postby mjr » 21 Apr 2017, 12:22pm

bigjim wrote:
mjr wrote:Probably not have hit the floor or not made such a dramatic bang, in my experience from sliding down the road far too often over the years.

Maybe you would have spent a fraction of the helmet money on studded tyres which might have actually prevented the fall, as I do now.

I didn't slide. Back wheel just slid away and dropped me.

I said I've gone sliding, not that you did this time - but it sounds like your bike went sliding, though.

bigjim wrote:Studded tyres? I live close to a city that rarely sees snow. It was a small patch of invisible ice covered in old leaves at the side of a dry cycle path. Things happen. Studded tyres are a waste of money in my biking life.

The price of one helmet can buy many studded tyres.

Also, if the ice was invisible, how do you know it was ice?
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Re: Helmets in Majorca (split)

Postby Vorpal » 21 Apr 2017, 12:30pm

bigjim wrote:I will try again then.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Helmets in Majorca (split)

Postby bigjim » 21 Apr 2017, 1:42pm

mjr wrote:
bigjim wrote:
mjr wrote:Probably not have hit the floor or not made such a dramatic bang, in my experience from sliding down the road far too often over the years.

Maybe you would have spent a fraction of the helmet money on studded tyres which might have actually prevented the fall, as I do now.

I didn't slide. Back wheel just slid away and dropped me.

I said I've gone sliding, not that you did this time - but it sounds like your bike went sliding, though.

bigjim wrote:Studded tyres? I live close to a city that rarely sees snow. It was a small patch of invisible ice covered in old leaves at the side of a dry cycle path. Things happen. Studded tyres are a waste of money in my biking life.

The price of one helmet can buy many studded tyres.

Also, if the ice was invisible, how do you know it was ice?

Why would I buy studded tyres? I stood up and checked the patch of ice with my foot. Why am I even explaining this?
You seem to be on my case a bit. Picking away. Have I offended you or something?
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mjr
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Re: Helmets in Majorca (split)

Postby mjr » 21 Apr 2017, 1:49pm

bigjim wrote:Why would I buy studded tyres? I stood up and checked the patch of ice with my foot. Why am I even explaining this?
You seem to be on my case a bit. Picking away. Have I offended you or something?

Because you ride over ice and crash. Because the previous posts made little sense. Not offended - it's just that the more you write, the more confused the story seems to become.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Re: Helmets in Majorca (split)

Postby bigjim » 21 Apr 2017, 2:15pm

mjr wrote:
bigjim wrote:Why would I buy studded tyres? I stood up and checked the patch of ice with my foot. Why am I even explaining this?
You seem to be on my case a bit. Picking away. Have I offended you or something?

Because you ride over ice and crash. Because the previous posts made little sense. Not offended - it's just that the more you write, the more confused the story seems to become.

You seem to be the only one confused. Guy falls off bike and bangs his head. Shame you struggle with that. I'll put you on ignore and move on. Better things to do than converse with somebody looking for an argument. :roll:
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Wanlock Dod
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Re: Helmets in Majorca (split)

Postby Wanlock Dod » 21 Apr 2017, 4:05pm

bigjim wrote:Guy falls off bike and bangs his head.


There is a short video of lots of Dutch people riding around a very slippery corner that might seriously call into question whether or not your head would have touched the ground if you had not been wearing a helmet. Perhaps somebody more cleverer than I can point you in the direction of it.

old_windbag
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Re: Helmets in Majorca (split)

Postby old_windbag » 21 Apr 2017, 4:37pm

Wanlock Dod wrote:Perhaps somebody more cleverer than I can point you in the direction of it.


is it this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqo4hwnJt6Y

There are a few close calls and remember these are young people with fast reactions and supple bodies on a cycle path. They are probably doing 10mph max at the bend, not on an open road surrounded by passing cars and lorries, kerbs and street furniture. We don't tend to have unique cycle infrastructure, ours tend to be two way, narrow and shared by pedestrians and dog walkers. Not really conducive to making efficient progress. The capital seems to have all manner of wonderful super highways but don't think this is uk wide?

There'll never be any helmet/no helmet agreement. Perhaps we should also remove the legal necessity for helmets being worn for 30mph mopeds/scooters allowing it to be free choice as per the bicycle. The speed range isn't far different from cyclists on road bikes, maybe 5-10mph.

Wanlock Dod
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Re: Helmets in Majorca (split)

Postby Wanlock Dod » 21 Apr 2017, 5:30pm

old_windbag wrote:Perhaps we should also remove the legal necessity for helmets being worn for 30mph mopeds/scooters allowing it to be free choice as per the bicycle


Maybe not such a bad idea if we are really interested in safety
http://john-adams.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2006/motorcycle%20helmets.pdf

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Re: Helmets in Majorca (split)

Postby mjr » 21 Apr 2017, 5:36pm

old_windbag wrote:is it this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqo4hwnJt6Y

There are a few close calls and remember these are young people with fast reactions and supple bodies on a cycle path.

Why do you think they're "young people"? While some clearly are, most are too bundled up to tell and at least one has a child on the back so probably isn't that young. On my Dutch bike, wrapped up for winter, I resemble them but I'm not so young as I used to be.

"fast reactions and supple bodies" quite possibly, but that's part of what cycling does :-)

old_windbag wrote:They are probably doing 10mph max at the bend, not on an open road surrounded by passing cars and lorries, kerbs and street furniture. We don't tend to have unique cycle infrastructure, ours tend to be two way, narrow and shared by pedestrians and dog walkers.

That track in the video is two way and narrow, plus they're doing 10mph or so because it's such a tight bend.

A lot of theirs, especially in rural areas, is two way, narrow and shared by pedestrians and dog walkers. Their solution to dog walkers has been signs in trouble spots saying "dogs on leads" - you'd get lynched for that in this country :-(

old_windbag wrote:There'll never be any helmet/no helmet agreement. Perhaps we should also remove the legal necessity for helmets being worn for 30mph mopeds/scooters allowing it to be free choice as per the bicycle. The speed range isn't far different from cyclists on road bikes, maybe 5-10mph.

:lol: Only the pros routinely achieve the same average speed. Only the fast group of the local racing group is within 5-10mph. If you're routinely achieving it, you could go win some races! Although you'd need to wear a helmet :roll:
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Re: Helmets in Majorca (split)

Postby old_windbag » 21 Apr 2017, 9:28pm

mjr wrote:Only the pros routinely achieve the same average speed. Only the fast group of the local racing group is within 5-10mph. If you're routinely achieving it, you could go win some races! Although you'd need to wear a helmet :roll:


Pro's will ride with averages in the mid to high twenties, being in a large peleton helps on top of their high sustainable power. But for many of us mere mortals our averages are still in the 15-25mph category on road bikes, not perhaps over 125mls but ten's of miles. A person riding a moped/scooter limited to 30mph will average a lot less than the 30mph maximum on their typical journey. My commute to work in the past( using car ) was a 35mile journey on mostly A-roads...... my average speed on a typical weekday 30mph, when schools were off 35mph average. Thats sitting for a lot of the journey at 60mph.

The difference in average speed between moped and cyclist won't be a huge gap. I'm risk averse as I have no back up for accidents, income wise, but many cyclists will do 40-50mph down hills. With a 15mph tailwind most of us will see 25-30mph on the flat on a road bike. So not up at pro speeds but still not speeds to have mishaps at.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Helmets in Majorca (split)

Postby [XAP]Bob » 22 Apr 2017, 9:33am

Now look at a moped helmet - it's a different beast entirely from a cycle helmet....

It's design criteria don't include 12mph anywhere I'd wager
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way.
No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
A good pun is it's own reword

There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.


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