Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

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mikeymo
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Postby mikeymo » 13 Nov 2020, 10:00am

pjclinch wrote:
mikeymo wrote:
That's the great thing about the internet, isn't it? You can always find some example that proves your case.


If one's case is that it's all a bit more complicated than many think and there is a great deal of conflicting evidence it is pretty good for that, yes...


Exactly. Some people put a great deal of energy into proving that we don't really know.

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pjclinch
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Postby pjclinch » 13 Nov 2020, 10:17am

mikeymo wrote:
pjclinch wrote:
mikeymo wrote:
That's the great thing about the internet, isn't it? You can always find some example that proves your case.


If one's case is that it's all a bit more complicated than many think and there is a great deal of conflicting evidence it is pretty good for that, yes...


Exactly. Some people put a great deal of energy into proving that we don't really know.


I've put a lot of energy in to trying to find out, and after some while had to admit it's not really possible at present (and that's armed with easy access to a research library, not just internet randoms). Anyone that thinks otherwise is going way beyond the state of the evidence.
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Jdsk
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Postby Jdsk » 18 Nov 2020, 4:49pm

Hurst G supports a ban on children heading footballs:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/sir-geoff-hurst-offers-donate-23026118

Celebrities can't often add evidence but they can do a lot in publicity, engagement and education.

"Why has it taken 50 years for football to connect heading with brain injuries?"
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2020/nov/18/why-50-years-football-connect-heading-with-concussion

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mattsccm
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Postby mattsccm » 21 Nov 2020, 6:11pm

Might I ask why those who feel so strongly about helmets being worn feel that they have any right to interfere with another persons choices?

Thehairs1970
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Re: Helmets for footballers instead of cyclists

Postby Thehairs1970 » 21 Nov 2020, 8:42pm

Cyril Haearn wrote:
ChrisButch wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:One hears repeatedly of footballers suffering dementia caused apparently by practising heading balls..
Maybe they could wear unwanted cycling helmets, but what properties should a football helmet have?

Presumably something like a climbing helmet, since they're designed primarily to protect from objects falling from above?


Just read about a famous *base jumper* who took his last jump, not sure if he wore a climbing (or jumping) helmet
Footballers helmets could be optimised to give the ball more momentum, lots of marginal gains possible, and sponsorship €€!
Doubtless many footballers do lots of headers without suffering, just like my grandad who lived to 107 and smoked 20 woodbine a day %-#)


Yep. Base jumpers should wear helmets. Because it'll really help as you hit the floor.

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pjclinch
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Postby pjclinch » 24 Nov 2020, 8:26am

mattsccm wrote:Might I ask why those who feel so strongly about helmets being worn feel that they have any right to interfere with another persons choices?


TBF it's not like they're the only case where the "Moral Majority" feel their need to regulate the behaviour of others where it is no concern of theirs but they just feel something deeply wrong is going on.

Specific reasons given to me are that as a cycling instructor I was "setting a bad example" and as a parent riding with my (also unhelmeted) kids I was being "irresponsible". They seem to think I effectively have blood on my hands, or as good as.

There are some interesting observations on some of the issues at https://www.kaupunkifillari.fi/blog/2019/03/31/rethinking-safety/, and worth bearing in mind when looking at that that a fair few people are labouring under the misapprehension that wearing a lid is the law (no, me neither, but they do) and quite a lot of others selectively regard the advice that the Highway Code gives as nearly the same (that will typically be people from outside an outgroup looking at advice for that outgroup, or people within an outgroup who follow it themselves and feel a need to police it).

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ChrisP100
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Postby ChrisP100 » 26 Nov 2020, 10:43am

I've got a scar in the middle of my forehead where I fell off my bike as a 5 year old and nutted the floor. Helmets weren't really a thing back then, but if I'd been wearing one, I wouldn't have ended up with 5 stitches and a blood stained t shirt.

Having said that, I've fallen off more than a few times since (with and without a helmet) and my head hasn't once impacted the floor. I do have a friend who is still with us today because he wore a helmet (t-boned at a junction when he was doing about 40mph downhill, hit the deck pretty much head first and split his lid in half), but I still think people should be free to chose to wear one or not, and they shouldn't be judged either way.

One of the main reasons I wear a helmet now is that it keeps my wife happy, and that's good enough for me.

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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Postby roubaixtuesday » 26 Nov 2020, 10:59am

ChrisP100 wrote:...I do have a friend who is still with us today because he wore a helmet (t-boned at a junction when he was doing about 40mph downhill, hit the deck pretty much head first and split his lid in half)...


It is notable that the number of people saved by their helmet far exceeds the number of people who died cycling before helmets were widely worn.

The reasons why this might be are left as an exercise for the reader.

Psamathe
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Postby Psamathe » 26 Nov 2020, 11:10am

roubaixtuesday wrote:
ChrisP100 wrote:...I do have a friend who is still with us today because he wore a helmet (t-boned at a junction when he was doing about 40mph downhill, hit the deck pretty much head first and split his lid in half)...


It is notable that the number of people saved by their helmet far exceeds the number of people who died cycling before helmets were widely worn.

The reasons why this might be are left as an exercise for the reader.

(A bit off-topic and more general helmet discussion but) several years ago I came off (a slippery patch or road on a junction, not another vehicle in sight and I was doing sensible speed). I happened to be wearing a helmet and one thing I noticed was how loud the bang was as my helmet hit the road. I was not hurt, but after bending handle bars straight again my personal thoughts were that maybe my head would not have even hit the road without the helmet (lighter and smaller). Absolutely no way of knowing alternative outcomes in my situation and leaping to "saved worse injury" just because of a loud contact was something I could not know.

(I'm "agnostic" re helmet wearing, sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Not worn one for last 18 months. Last change of habit from wearing to not wearing was leaving a Brittany Ferries boat where their rules stated "you must wear your helmet" which prompted me to tie my helmet prominently to my rear rack as my "finger" to them and it sort of stayed there for the rest of the tour ...).

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mikeymo
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Postby mikeymo » 3 Dec 2020, 10:20pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
ChrisP100 wrote:...I do have a friend who is still with us today because he wore a helmet (t-boned at a junction when he was doing about 40mph downhill, hit the deck pretty much head first and split his lid in half)...


It is notable that the number of people saved by their helmet far exceeds the number of people who died cycling before helmets were widely worn.

The reasons why this might be are left as an exercise for the reader.


I didn't realise there were figures for how many people have been saved by their helmet. I just had a quick google, but couldn't find anything. I'd be interested to see those data, please could you supply a reference.

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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Postby pjclinch » 4 Dec 2020, 8:48am

mikeymo wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
ChrisP100 wrote:...I do have a friend who is still with us today because he wore a helmet (t-boned at a junction when he was doing about 40mph downhill, hit the deck pretty much head first and split his lid in half)...


It is notable that the number of people saved by their helmet far exceeds the number of people who died cycling before helmets were widely worn.

The reasons why this might be are left as an exercise for the reader.


I didn't realise there were figures for how many people have been saved by their helmet. I just had a quick google, but couldn't find anything. I'd be interested to see those data, please could you supply a reference.


Sorry I haven't been counting and publishing the results, but pretty much any time helmet efficacy comes up someone appears to say they've had their lives saved, often several times. I've been getting that for over a quarter of a century. You could only have failed to notice this if you're remarkably unobservant or are playing the "it's only true with a formal citation!" game.

The same people will generally tell you it can happen to anyone anywhere and while technically it can, the lack of people dying in quite the expected droves in NL despite plenty of falling off going on, suggests either Dutch gravity is markedly lower or they're reading too much in to broken helmets.
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mikeymo
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Postby mikeymo » 4 Dec 2020, 10:50am

pjclinch wrote:
mikeymo wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
It is notable that the number of people saved by their helmet far exceeds the number of people who died cycling before helmets were widely worn.

The reasons why this might be are left as an exercise for the reader.


I didn't realise there were figures for how many people have been saved by their helmet. I just had a quick google, but couldn't find anything. I'd be interested to see those data, please could you supply a reference.


Sorry I haven't been counting and publishing the results, but pretty much any time helmet efficacy comes up someone appears to say they've had their lives saved, often several times. I've been getting that for over a quarter of a century. You could only have failed to notice this if you're remarkably unobservant or are playing the "it's only true with a formal citation!" game.

The same people will generally tell you it can happen to anyone anywhere and while technically it can, the lack of people dying in quite the expected droves in NL despite plenty of falling off going on, suggests either Dutch gravity is markedly lower or they're reading too much in to broken helmets.


I'm not playing any sort of "game". Though in an area of discussion where reference to studies is so often used as evidence, it does you little credit to characterise a request for evidence to support an assertion as a "game".

It was the use of words like "number" and "exceeds" (by roubaixtuesday) that made me think there must some sort of study or data out there. Otherwise why would he/she make such an assertion?

I don't know who "someone" and "the same people" you refer to are. But as you are replying to me, I'll point out that I have never claimed that a helmet saved my life. I wouldn't say that I am "remarkably unobservant", but yes, I don't have your "over a quarter of a century" of "getting" it. Because I haven't been cycling for anywhere near that long.

Thanks for letting me know your feelings.

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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Postby pjclinch » 4 Dec 2020, 11:24am

mikeymo wrote:I don't know who "someone" and "the same people" you refer to are.


The uncounted but numerous someones who always appear out of the woodwork to tell you their lives have been saved. In the recent history of this thread ChrisP100's friend is just one such.
Any time CUK make a facebook post of someone not wearing a helmet you'll find usually them in the comments sooner or later, a quick look, random scroll through the last week's posts and a nothing-to-do-with-helmets post illustrated by a chap not wearing a lid has an Andy Bretherton stating that "Wearing a cycle helmet has saved my life twice".

It really isn't hard to find these examples, those two are

mikeymo wrote:I wouldn't say that I am "remarkably unobservant", but yes, I don't have your "over a quarter of a century" of "getting" it. Because I haven't been cycling for anywhere near that long.


I never really noticed how much people went on about helmets to people who don't wear them when I wore one (all through the 90s). Since I stopped wearing and realised that apparently that makes it okay to shout abuse at me on the streets and describe me as a Darwin Award candidate in waiting and prevent me from doing cycle training even though I had a good record at it, I've tended to notice it rather more.
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mikeymo
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Postby mikeymo » 4 Dec 2020, 12:08pm

pjclinch wrote:
mikeymo wrote:I don't know who "someone" and "the same people" you refer to are.


The uncounted but numerous someones who always appear out of the woodwork to tell you their lives have been saved. In the recent history of this thread ChrisP100's friend is just one such.
Any time CUK make a facebook post of someone not wearing a helmet you'll find usually them in the comments sooner or later, a quick look, random scroll through the last week's posts and a nothing-to-do-with-helmets post illustrated by a chap not wearing a lid has an Andy Bretherton stating that "Wearing a cycle helmet has saved my life twice".

It really isn't hard to find these examples, those two are

mikeymo wrote:I wouldn't say that I am "remarkably unobservant", but yes, I don't have your "over a quarter of a century" of "getting" it. Because I haven't been cycling for anywhere near that long.


I never really noticed how much people went on about helmets to people who don't wear them when I wore one (all through the 90s). Since I stopped wearing and realised that apparently that makes it okay to shout abuse at me on the streets and describe me as a Darwin Award candidate in waiting and prevent me from doing cycle training even though I had a good record at it, I've tended to notice it rather more.


Yes, this has clearly had an effect on you. I suppose being shouted at must do that. Thank you for describing your experience.

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pjclinch
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Postby pjclinch » 4 Dec 2020, 12:11pm

mikeymo wrote:Yes, this has clearly had an effect on you. I suppose being shouted at must do that. Thank you for describing your experience.


Not so much the shouting, more the being repeatedly patronised as a moron.
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