Bolton Council asks UK government to make helmets compulsory

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
bluemootwo
Posts: 101
Joined: 21 Aug 2015, 7:14am

Re: Bolton Council asks UK government to make helmets compul

Postby bluemootwo » 15 Dec 2015, 4:22pm

You forget that law-making is all about "sending a signal" nowadays.

User avatar
Heltor Chasca
Posts: 3016
Joined: 30 Aug 2014, 8:18pm
Location: Near Bath & The Mendips in Somerset

Re: Bolton Council asks UK government to make helmets compul

Postby Heltor Chasca » 15 Dec 2015, 4:27pm

bluemootwo wrote:You forget that law-making is all about "sending a signal" nowadays.


Perhaps yes. Or a 'back-up' (or cover you a&£€) tactic in today's litigious society just in case something happens. Maybe Bolton's pavements are harder than the ones down south...b

kwackers
Posts: 14379
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: Bolton Council asks UK government to make helmets compul

Postby kwackers » 15 Dec 2015, 4:30pm

Heltor Chasca wrote:Perhaps yes. Or a 'back-up' (or cover you a&£€) tactic in today's litigious society just in case something happens. Maybe Bolton's pavements are harder than the ones down south...b

Gold is softer than concrete (I think).

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 15051
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Bolton Council asks UK government to make helmets compul

Postby mjr » 15 Dec 2015, 4:42pm

Heltor Chasca wrote:I would like to make the point that this may be yet another unenforceable law invented by politicians and pen pushers. Like mobile phone usage, 20mph speed limits, smoking in work vehicles etc etc; there is just no hope in Hades our police force can catch the law breakers.

I suspect what would probably happen is that any such law would be enforced spasmodically and unevenly, same as the current laws around cycling, plus used against any cyclist involved in a collision, even more than the current prejudicial Highway Code rule. Ride quietly and no problem, but do anything that attracts attention and get pulled over.

It's a wind up yet again by someone who has too much time on their hands. Perhaps said council should put their energy into proper cycle infrastructure...b

Amen! Or call for strict liability or road justice or any one of a number of other moves which would be far more likely to reduce casualties.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

User avatar
Vantage
Posts: 2704
Joined: 24 Jan 2012, 1:44pm
Location: somewhere in Bolton
Contact:

Re: Bolton Council asks UK government to make helmets compul

Postby Vantage » 15 Dec 2015, 4:42pm

Something has just occured to me about the whole incident leading to this malarky.
According to the link, his son came off his bike while riding to work on Thicketford Road after hitting a curb. I used to live off that road. On either end it is steep and long enough to pick up serious speed and last time I looked there was no cycle lane either on the road itself or on the footpaths alongside it. Neither is it particularily straight.
This got me thinking. Given his injures, he must have been going at a fair whack. Given him being old enough to work, he must surely be wise enough to look where he was going at that speed.
How the flippin 'eck did he hit a curb??? Not going up it surely as that would mean mounting the pavement which we all know is illegal. I know for a fact that the bends on that road are gentle but still require concentration due to its traffic volumes so it wasn't a sudden sharp bend that he overshot.
Mandatory helmet laws??? Hows about learning to ride the bike in the first place!
Bill


“Ride as much or as little, or as long or as short as you feel. But ride.” ~ Eddy Merckx
It's a rich man whos children run to him when his pockets are empty.

Mike Sales
Posts: 4505
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Bolton Council asks UK government to make helmets compul

Postby Mike Sales » 15 Dec 2015, 4:43pm

Heltor Chasca wrote:I would like to make the point that this may be yet another unenforceable law invented by politicians and pen pushers. Like mobile phone usage, 20mph speed limits, smoking in work vehicles etc etc; there is just no hope in Hades our police force can catch the law breakers.



Its quite easy to spot a cyclist without a lid, and easy to catch them. At any rate Melbourne police have no problem
The attitude of Bicycle Victoria, a cyclist' group, is also interesting.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/riders-left-reeling-by-bike-fine-increase-20100526-we7e.html

The fine for not wearing a helmet has jumped to $146 - which is likely to bring in at least $1 million in revenue for the state government this financial year.

Last year, when the fine was $58, there were 6600 cyclists fined.

The officer in charge of Victoria Police's bicycle unit, Sergeant Arty Lavos, said cyclists without a helmet were a particular focus.

''Helmet offences are enforced daily by all our bicycle patrol units and general duties units,'' he said. ''It is the most fundamental safety rule.''

Bicycle Victoria recently had its lawyers help one cyclist who was fined for passing a tram under the new laws get off on a technicality.

But the lobby group - which received about 12 per cent of its $11.8 million in funding last year from the state government - says it is right that cyclists now face serious fines.

Spokesman Garry Brennan said that if bicycle riders wanted equal treatment on the road, they had to accept equal responsibility.

They should be ''prepared to cop equivalent fines to other road users if it means we are accorded the full rights we are entitled to under the law,'' Mr Brennan said.



Mike Sales
Posts: 4505
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Bolton Council asks UK government to make helmets compul

Postby Mike Sales » 15 Dec 2015, 4:48pm

No problem pinching Kiwi cyclists either.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11185288

About 10,000 cyclists a year are stopped and fined by police for biking without a helmet.

And between 300 and 400 cyclists get tickets for other traffic law infringements - including a handful for speeding above the limits, which are the same as for motorists.

Figures provided to the Herald by police showed 20 cyclists had been picked up for travelling faster than the maximum 50km/h limit in 2012.

Police said the method of speed detection was radar, no different from cars, buses and trucks.

Have you had a close shave? Email us here.

The number of helmet infringements was about 6000 a year in the early 2000s, but has sat above 8000 annually for most years since 2003.

User avatar
Heltor Chasca
Posts: 3016
Joined: 30 Aug 2014, 8:18pm
Location: Near Bath & The Mendips in Somerset

Bolton Council asks UK government to make helmets compulsory

Postby Heltor Chasca » 15 Dec 2015, 5:13pm

Mike. If our police can't catch vehicle drivers who flout the law, given all the the techno-wizardry and number plates, they aren't going to catch people on bicycles are they?

We have a similar police per capita stats in England and Wales in comparison to Australia (about 200:100,000) so that's not the issue. Maybe it's the paperwork involved with UK enforcement that makes it unviable? Australian police (according to my daughters' relatives) still exercise the 'clip-round-the-ear' method which entails supervision of the errant minus the paperwork. It obviously gets results in Melbourne according to your quote. You touch on attitude. I think culturally there is a huge difference in attitude. Perhaps we don't have respect for the law as much as Australians. I surmise of course.

However I cycle here in the UK and I enjoy the freedom of a reasonably democratic government and as such I choose to cycle without a helmet. And for now I have that choice. I also tolerate and accept that others choose to wear them...b
Last edited by Heltor Chasca on 16 Dec 2015, 12:03am, edited 1 time in total.

Mike Sales
Posts: 4505
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Bolton Council asks UK government to make helmets compul

Postby Mike Sales » 15 Dec 2015, 5:19pm

Heltor Chasca wrote:Mike. If our police can't catch vehicle drivers who flout the law, given all the the techno-wizardry and number plates, they aren't going to catch people on bicycles are they?

We have a similar police per capita stats in England and Wales in comparison to Australia (about 200:100,000) so that's not the issue. Maybe it's the paperwork involved with UK enforcement that makes it unviable? Australian police (according to relatives) still exercise the 'clip-round-the-ear' method which entails supervision of the errant minus the paperwork. It obviously gets results in Melbourne according to your quote. You touch on attitude. I think culturally there is a huge difference in attitude. Perhaps we don't have respect for the law as much as Australians. I surmise of course.

However I cycle here in the UK and I enjoy the freedom of a reasonably democratic government and as such I choose to cycle without a helmet. And for now I have that choice. I also tolerate and accept that others choose to wear them...b


I treasure that freedom too.
Its not so much our attitude to law breaking which would determine whether the police bothered to pinch us, but the police attitude to cyclists. Perhaps something as obvious as a bare head (compared with a phone which can be switched off and denied) would provoke them.
Oz does seem to have a "nanny state" attitude. This is curious in a country founded by convicts!

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 15051
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Bolton Council asks UK government to make helmets compul

Postby mjr » 15 Dec 2015, 5:20pm

Mike Sales wrote:No problem pinching Kiwi cyclists either.

Smaller population and even lower cycling rate than the UK. NZ has under 2% of trips being by cycle and a commuting rate so low as to make the statistic unreliably near zero!

Australia was mentioned. I can't find a modal share, there's a very static 2% census commuting share (England and Wales average 3%) and a survey suggested repealing the helmet law would double the numbers cycling http://theconversation.com/make-helmets ... ralia-4578

Are those really the places we should aspire to follow? :eek:
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

beardy
Posts: 3382
Joined: 23 Feb 2010, 4:10pm

Re: Bolton Council asks UK government to make helmets compul

Postby beardy » 15 Dec 2015, 5:28pm

Perhaps something as obvious as a bare head (compared with a phone which can be switched off and denied) would provoke them.


When did you last see a motorcyclist without a helmet? I bet you never see one being ignored by a Policeman (except as part of a mass protest).

Mike Sales
Posts: 4505
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Bolton Council asks UK government to make helmets compul

Postby Mike Sales » 15 Dec 2015, 5:28pm

mjr wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:No problem pinching Kiwi cyclists either.

Smaller population and even lower cycling rate than the UK. NZ has under 2% of trips being by cycle and a commuting rate so low as to make the statistic unreliably near zero!

Australia was mentioned. I can't find a modal share, there's a very static 2% census commuting share (England and Wales average 3%) and a survey suggested repealing the helmet law would double the numbers cycling http://theconversation.com/make-helmets ... ralia-4578

Are those really the places we should aspire to follow? :eek:


I was merely observing that the colonial police have no difficulty of finding plenty of lidless riders to fine. That there are fewer and a lower proportion of cyclists available to fine does not seem to me to be relevant. If anything with our higher numbers of cyclists they would just have more targets.
I hope you don't think I believe we should aspire to follow these poor countries. The attitude to cyclists I have come across in internet discussions from Australians is deeply disturbing. Helmet laws are a product of this, I think. A helmet law here would be a sign we are going that way, and also give more ammunition to the anti-cycling idiots. Already we are attacked for not wearing the bloody things.

User avatar
Heltor Chasca
Posts: 3016
Joined: 30 Aug 2014, 8:18pm
Location: Near Bath & The Mendips in Somerset

Re: Bolton Council asks UK government to make helmets compul

Postby Heltor Chasca » 15 Dec 2015, 5:30pm

Mike Sales wrote:
Heltor Chasca wrote:Mike. If our police can't catch vehicle drivers who flout the law, given all the the techno-wizardry and number plates, they aren't going to catch people on bicycles are they?

We have a similar police per capita stats in England and Wales in comparison to Australia (about 200:100,000) so that's not the issue. Maybe it's the paperwork involved with UK enforcement that makes it unviable? Australian police (according to relatives) still exercise the 'clip-round-the-ear' method which entails supervision of the errant minus the paperwork. It obviously gets results in Melbourne according to your quote. You touch on attitude. I think culturally there is a huge difference in attitude. Perhaps we don't have respect for the law as much as Australians. I surmise of course.

However I cycle here in the UK and I enjoy the freedom of a reasonably democratic government and as such I choose to cycle without a helmet. And for now I have that choice. I also tolerate and accept that others choose to wear them...b


I treasure that freedom too.
Its not so much our attitude to law breaking which would determine whether the police bothered to pinch us, but the police attitude to cyclists. Perhaps something as obvious as a bare head (compared with a phone which can be switched off and denied) would provoke them.
Oz does seem to have a "nanny state" attitude. This is curious in a country founded by convicts!


Good point about police/cyclists. I remember years ago in Piccadilly Circus being abused by a young officer. I had pulled in front of the stop line (advanced stop lines didn't exist) to keep clear of a car. He went mental and launched into a very personal, emotional diatribe about cyclists...only to stop mid-sentence...to realise he had drawn a crowd of curious tourists. He brought shame on the force.

That said, I think that if the common-garden-variety of drivers think they can get away with speeding, texting, cutting corners on bends etc etc, they will.

User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 17179
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Bolton Council asks UK government to make helmets compul

Postby [XAP]Bob » 15 Dec 2015, 5:31pm

beardy wrote:
Perhaps something as obvious as a bare head (compared with a phone which can be switched off and denied) would provoke them.


When did you last see a motorcyclist without a helmet? I bet you never see one being ignored by a Policeman (except as part of a mass protest).

Let I heard it was a tactic used to stop the police chasing you, since the change of serious injury in a police chase with a bare headed motorcyclist was too high... No, I don't get the logic either.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

Mattyfez
Posts: 353
Joined: 22 Dec 2014, 7:24pm

Re: Bolton Council asks UK government to make helmets compul

Postby Mattyfez » 15 Dec 2015, 5:38pm

Agree with the above.. Such a law would have 2 major issues :

1. Those who chose to ignore it wouldn't be prosecuted.. How do they intend to enforce it? Run after them?

2. Some would just not cycle at all, so extra strain on the NHS.

It's just not logical to pass such a law despite the odd death. Not that government cares about logic, bribes, sorry, lobbying maybe.