Supported Lejog goes Off topic

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
kwackers
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Re: Supported Lejog goes Off topic

Postby kwackers » 4 Jan 2016, 8:32am

reohn2 wrote:And there are those that think a RVM is completely unnecessary on a bike.I beg to differ since first fitting one some 15(?) years ago I'd never go back to riding without one.

I must admit I sometimes have a mirror sometimes not. My last mirror died when the bike fell over 18 months ago and I'm still to replace it.
I don't buy the idea that they save lives, they're simply not good enough to differentiate between a last second move over and close pass and being clipped (particularly by a truck mirror) and even if they could by the time you've figured it out it's too late anyway.

Whilst I probably prefer cycling with one I figure a lot of the feeling of safety they infer is imagined rather than real.

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Si
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Re: Supported Lejog goes Off topic

Postby Si » 4 Jan 2016, 9:14am

kwackers wrote:
reohn2 wrote:And there are those that think a RVM is completely unnecessary on a bike.I beg to differ since first fitting one some 15(?) years ago I'd never go back to riding without one.

I must admit I sometimes have a mirror sometimes not. My last mirror died when the bike fell over 18 months ago and I'm still to replace it.
I don't buy the idea that they save lives, they're simply not good enough to differentiate between a last second move over and close pass and being clipped (particularly by a truck mirror) and even if they could by the time you've figured it out it's too late anyway.

Whilst I probably prefer cycling with one I figure a lot of the feeling of safety they infer is imagined rather than real.


The mirror argument has a lot in common with the helmet debate IMHO. "Common sense" suggests that they help you stay safe but in reality the picture is a little more complex. What one needs to understand is that looking back over ones shoulder is not just to see what is happening behind, it's to communicate with following vehicles. If the driver behind you can only see the back of your head they will probably assume that you are going in a straight line. If, on the other hand, you turn round and eye-ball them, they tend to hold back or give you more room as they think you are about to do something. Likewise, there is that thing in human nature that makes us less likely to do something dodgy if we know that someone has seen us (hence the cardboard cut-outs of coppers in shop windows) so looking at the driver following you underlines the fact that a) they have been seen and can be identified, and b) that you are a real live, vulnerable person not a faceless bike.

Thus, if we use a mirror to replace that look behind we are making things more dangerous for ourselves.

If, on the other hand we still do all of the looks but use the mirror to supplement them then fair enough.

And, before anyone says it, 'bents are a whole different kettle of fish, being so out of the ordinary that drivers already tend to give them more room and expect them to do weird things :wink: .

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Re: Supported Lejog goes Off topic

Postby Steady rider » 4 Jan 2016, 9:44am

bents are a whole different kettle of fish


What are / is 'bents' for clarity?

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Re: Supported Lejog goes Off topic

Postby Neilo » 4 Jan 2016, 9:46am

recumBENTS
If it aint broke, fix it til it is.


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Re: Supported Lejog goes Off topic

Postby reohn2 » 4 Jan 2016, 10:53am

I make no claims of juju protection or any other FTM for RVM,(unlike some may for helmets)but that riding with one gives an,at-a-glance,assessment of the road behind.
That assessment is valuable and when a RVM is fitted you use it because it's there.
I doesn't replace the 'lifesaver' over the shoulder look but adds the ability of constant rearward surveying of the road.
That is something since using one I've found extremely valuable and is nothing like wearing a helmet.

Wearing a helmet is a one off (possibly perceived)'safety net',a RVM is a constantly used rearward eye tool.
Whether you feel the need for one is up to you.
I bought one to use on the tandem,and was so impressed by their value that I fitted one to all my bikes,except the MTB,though feel more vulnerable on road sections on the MTB for not having the useful eye behind.
YV(rearward)MV.
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Si
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Re: Supported Lejog goes Off topic

Postby Si » 4 Jan 2016, 3:38pm

Well that's the thing - if you use it to supplement your already good practise then it can be a boon, but if one tries to use it instead then it can be a danger.

Like wearing a helmet but not bothering to learn how to ride safely in traffic properly (apart from the obvious difference :wink: ).

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Re: Supported Lejog goes Off topic

Postby irc » 4 Jan 2016, 7:10pm

Si wrote:Thus, if we use a mirror to replace that look behind we are making things more dangerous for ourselves.


The mirror allows a rider to watch every overtaking vehicle. I've never seen any cyclist on the open road doing a shoulder check at every overtaking car. The vast majority of the time it doesn't matter. The car/truck isn't going to hit us. But the fact is that an accident like the one Cracknell had is avoidable by using a mirror. I've avoided one certain hit in Nevada when an RV went through the space I had been in at 60mph. I had seen him coming half a mile back in the mirror. Watched oncoming cars take away his option to change lanes then watched as he didn't slow down at all. It happened on the upslope in the distance in the pic below. No shoulder. Only enough road width for two vehicles. I had to ride on to the gravel shoulder to avoid being hit.

In theory I could do the same thing with shoulder checks. In practise I'd be shoulder checking constantly. I probably checked the position of that RV several times in the last 30 seconds before it went through.

B-death-basin2.jpg
Route 50 Nevada


More frequently I've seen punishment passes coming and therefore not been shocked by them. Like when I was riding in the center of an 8 ft shoulder. In my mirror I saw a bunch of half a dozen motorcycles approaching. One deliberately left the traffic lane and entered the edge of the shoulder to buzz me. I waited until he was comitted to his line then moved 2 or 3 feet to the edge of the shoulder and turned a very close overtake into a comfortable one.

I agree that any manouvere should still be preceded by a shoulder check. Both to confirm the road is clear and to signal to other road users.

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Re: Supported Lejog goes Off topic

Postby kwackers » 5 Jan 2016, 8:52am

irc wrote:The mirror allows a rider to watch every overtaking vehicle

Not on a busy road in rush hour it doesn't. There'll be times when you need all your attention forward and will have to assume the vehicles behind are behaving correctly.

You could also argue a better strategy for what you describe is simply to hold the lane and move left as each vehicle comes up on you before moving back. This way you increase the passing distance of every vehicle that overtakes without any need to take your eyes off the road in front.

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Re: Supported Lejog goes Off topic

Postby Si » 5 Jan 2016, 11:27am

IRC, if you are disagreeing with me then you don't seem to be distinguishing between the two cases I put: that of replacing looks behind with a mirror (potentially bad) and that of supplementing looks behind with a mirror (potentially good).

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Re: Supported Lejog goes Off topic

Postby Si » 5 Jan 2016, 11:28am

anyway...about time this thread got moved to the mirror argument forum :wink: .

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Re: Supported Lejog goes Off topic

Postby horizon » 5 Jan 2016, 12:41pm

Si wrote:anyway...about time this thread got moved to the mirror argument forum :wink: .


True, but it's an interesting discussion. I find that using a mirror has changed my whole style and attitude towards riding. I wouldn't these days try to convince other people to use one as it will depend on their own style and practice. But what I do find strange is that it hasn't been picked up up by the H&S brigade (I don't want it to be!). I suspect that a lot of helmet advocacy is either from non-riders or from faster riders who espouse helmets but don't want the perceived encumbrance of a mirror. The helmet lobby are also (in my very sweeping opinion) quite passive and victim-like (and quite possibly sub-consciously pro-car) so anything that facilitates active/defensive riding is anathema to them.
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Re: Supported Lejog goes Off topic

Postby irc » 5 Jan 2016, 10:10pm

kwackers wrote:
irc wrote:The mirror allows a rider to watch every overtaking vehicle

Not on a busy road in rush hour it doesn't. There'll be times when you need all your attention forward and will have to assume the vehicles behind are behaving correctly.


Rush hour roads don't tent to be the places cyclists are hit by overtaking vehicles. I'm often passing cars rather than the other way round. Anyway just like using a rear view mirror in a car it's only checked when safe to do so. With my mirror mounted a few inches above and right of my brake hood it only takes a very brief glance to check it. But it's certainly possible to watch every car in typical rural traffic.

kwackers wrote:You could also argue a better strategy for what you describe is simply to hold the lane and move left as each vehicle comes up on you before moving back. This way you increase the passing distance of every vehicle that overtakes without any need to take your eyes off the road in front.


Won't work when being passed be a stream of cars. Won't work in a headwind when cars can't be heard. In any case I prefer to ride a straight line, road surface allowing. The number of times I've had to move kerbwards to avoid carelessly close passes or punishment passes is tiny. 1 per 1000? Easier to use a mirror than change course for every passing car.

If I want to a car to give me a wide berth or not overtake then I'll consider wobbling a bit or doing a shoulder check and moving to the center of the road etc. What a mirror does is let me know what drivers behind me are doing. The choice is either trust every driver - works almost all the time. Or know what they are doing so I've got an option when the bad driver appears.

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Re: Supported Lejog goes Off topic

Postby irc » 5 Jan 2016, 10:14pm

Si wrote:IRC, if you are disagreeing with me then you don't seem to be distinguishing between the two cases I put: that of replacing looks behind with a mirror (potentially bad) and that of supplementing looks behind with a mirror (potentially good).


More the second case. Everyone should look behind when changing course. A mirror isn't enough. It isn't practical to look behind for every overtaking car on rural roads though. Nobody does it. A glance in a mirror lets you see what a car is doing.

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Re: Supported Lejog goes Off topic

Postby kwackers » 6 Jan 2016, 9:44am

irc wrote:Rush hour roads don't tent to be the places cyclists are hit by overtaking vehicles. I'm often passing cars rather than the other way round. Anyway just like using a rear view mirror in a car it's only checked when safe to do so. With my mirror mounted a few inches above and right of my brake hood it only takes a very brief glance to check it. But it's certainly possible to watch every car in typical rural traffic.

I agree with your clarification, but you did initially say "every overtaking vehicle" ;)