Failing friendship over helmet wearing

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
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mjr
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Re: Failing friendship over helmet wearing

Postby mjr » 11 Mar 2016, 4:04pm

Si wrote:BC have gone mad on elf'n'safety since a couple of people got killed in their events.

Which were those then? :(

Now I'm stuck in the position that I have several bikeability instructors under my aegis, who are less experienced than me, and who I have mentored in the past, but I'm not allowed to help them run the sessions that I'm putting on because I've not done the half day induction thingy and thus there are insurance issues. Mental.

Nothing to do with your avatar's helmet looking an awful lot like two traffic cones?
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AlaninWales
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Re: Failing friendship over helmet wearing

Postby AlaninWales » 11 Mar 2016, 4:06pm

pjclinch wrote:
AlaninWales wrote:You've signed up to "follow the rules" and not to help the young scout members to become useful members of society who are capable of thinking independently and assessing evidence? Baden-Powell must be spinning in his grave.


While the creation of the Scout Movement was a Good Thing for independence of children B-P did come up with some stern, hectoring, no-space-for-reasonable-doubt stuff that doesn't look to sit too well with thoughtful scepticism, so I'd be wary about attributing opinions to someone with such forthright opinions... Maybe he is spinning in his grave, but there again maybe he's saying "Quite right too, obviously what a sensible fellow should do!"

If you want to teach Scouts (or school Bikeability groups, or whoever) the realities of cycling all you'll usually get if you don't play their game by their rules is thrown out of the game. So you'll end up not teaching them anything because you won't be let near them. They'll have less fun, nobody is actually ahead :(

Pete.

I understand your point (and B-P had all sorts of opinions which don't fit in with the modern world), he had a military background and taught discipline=obedience. OTOH he expected 'his' youngsters to take risks (and carry knives, use them responsibly, learn to fight with staves, use fire, act independently etc). My father was a Scout Master just after the war and whilst I was never a scout, I had all of his books and read them thoroughly as a young teen (I wonder what happened to them). IMO B-P is unlikely to have had patience with the 'it might help save the dears from bruising' attitude of helmet evangelists.

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Si
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Re: Failing friendship over helmet wearing

Postby Si » 11 Mar 2016, 4:36pm

mjr wrote:
Si wrote:BC have gone mad on elf'n'safety since a couple of people got killed in their events.

Which were those then? :(


Afraid I don't know.

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Re: Failing friendship over helmet wearing

Postby Steady rider » 11 Mar 2016, 6:13pm

The Scouts say;
Please be advised that we have advised all members to wear helmets whilst cycling with exception to those members who wear a Turban. We are in partnership with Halfords and RAC who are sponsoring our cyclist and road safety badge and also work with them to implement safety rules when cycling.

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Re: Failing friendship over helmet wearing

Postby mjr » 11 Mar 2016, 8:52pm

That reads like they've been bought off by half odds :-(
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Re: Failing friendship over helmet wearing

Postby Steady rider » 11 Mar 2016, 9:51pm

They admit to being in partnership with a company that has a vested interest in helmet sales.

Ron
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Re: Failing friendship over helmet wearing

Postby Ron » 12 Mar 2016, 2:56pm

Mattyfez wrote:Any one else had something similar? How did you deal with it?

Yes, I've had a very similar experience with a non-cycling friend. When I presented the counter arguments, risk compensation, actual risk etc he was unable to put up any argument but stated quite clearly that my failure to wear a helmet whilst cycling WOULD result in my death. However, he would not use my refusal to wear a helmet as a reason for not attending my funeral!
I found the experience quite shocking, and as reasoned argument was getting me nowhere was tempted to close with some verbal abuse but like the OP, I didn't want to lose his friendship as we have a common interest in another field of activity and from my point of view there should be no difficulty in steering clear of any cycle related conversation with him in future.

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Re: Failing friendship over helmet wearing

Postby drossall » 12 Mar 2016, 11:35pm

AlaninWales wrote:You've signed up to "follow the rules" and not to help the young scout members to become useful members of society who are capable of thinking independently and assessing evidence? Baden-Powell must be spinning in his grave.

I'm not sure it works quite like that. On some things, you need to be prepared to play the team game - there are all sorts of places where you sign up to do what the body corporate has agreed. You can resign of course if you no longer feel that you should, but while you're part of things, you follow the line.

And frankly, the Scouts and the cycling matter more than the principle on this one. After all, the helmets are probably just ineffective, so it's not really a matter of putting anyone at risk.

Bicycler
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Re: Failing friendship over helmet wearing

Postby Bicycler » 13 Mar 2016, 1:54pm

We are in partnership with Halfords and RAC who are sponsoring our cyclist and road safety badge and also work with them to implement safety rules when cycling.

Steady rider wrote:They admit to being in partnership with a company that has a vested interest in helmet sales.

and Halfords :wink:

FWIW, I fully understand Drossall's pragmatic approach to this.

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Re: Failing friendship over helmet wearing

Postby Cunobelin » 13 Mar 2016, 2:16pm

Steady rider wrote:The Scouts say;
Please be advised that we have advised all members to wear helmets whilst cycling with exception to those members who wear a Turban. We are in partnership with Halfords and RAC who are sponsoring our cyclist and road safety badge and also work with them to implement safety rules when cycling.


I used to arrange a sponsored cycle ride for the local Scout Group, and also do the Cyclist badges

However I was then in a situation where I was forced to exclude parents and families from the sponsored rides, and some boys from the Cyclists badges because of an unevidenced knee jerk reaction

I no longer organise either, and the local group is down 25% a year on its fund-raising with financial issues

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Re: Failing friendship over helmet wearing

Postby Bicycler » 13 Mar 2016, 3:13pm

Just out of interest how many principled objections to helmet wearing did you receive? I didn't realise we stubborn so-and-sos were so numerous!

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Re: Failing friendship over helmet wearing

Postby Steady rider » 13 Mar 2016, 4:38pm

I wonder if the Scouts have an AGM where motions could be put?
https://staging.scouts.org.uk/documents ... on%202.pdf

No obvious provision for submitting motions.

drossall
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Re: Failing friendship over helmet wearing

Postby drossall » 13 Mar 2016, 5:38pm

Safety rules are not set by AGMs :D

There's a consultation process, under which working activity leaders are invited to comment on proposed rule changes, but the safety rules are then set centrally and not democratically. The Scout Association is always going to follow perceived best practice, and is not necessarily going to sit down and analyse actual accident statistics. Persuade society and the Scouts will follow.

In the meantime, I think it's better to offer the opportunity to ride, with or without helmet.

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Re: Failing friendship over helmet wearing

Postby Shootist » 13 Mar 2016, 5:51pm

I don't know that this thread has be better informed about helmets (not it's purpose, I know) but it has amazed me to read about what people call friends. Certainly some of the reactions by such 'friends' would, if I was on the receiving end, result in them being told to bugger off and don't bother coming back. Friends? :roll:
Pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."
[George Orwell]

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Cunobelin
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Re: Failing friendship over helmet wearing

Postby Cunobelin » 13 Mar 2016, 6:02pm

The Scout Association doesn't like non-conformity

Some years ago they were complaining that leaders were not wearing uniform enough and suggesting that wearing it to work, and on social occasions was the way forward to raise te profile.

Naively I pointed out that in the last three issues of the "Scouting" magazine the Chief Scout had not worn his uniform once, and that perhaps wearing the uniform when on Scouting duties would set an example

I received a very curt reply which was basically a rollicking for questioning the decisions of the Chief Scout