"Chopper" Cyclist killed in 3-rider collision (Plastic hats)

For all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmet usage will be moved here.
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mjr
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Re: "Chopper" Cyclist killed in 3-rider collision (Plastic h

Postby mjr » 19 May 2016, 3:45pm

BrianFox wrote:We don't, as motorists and pedestrians because we'd be ridiculed by others.

So it's basically about peer and societal pressure, I think, not practicality.

So we should start making fun of helmet-wearers. They think they look like...

Image

but in reality, they look like...
Image

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Mike Sales
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Re: "Chopper" Cyclist killed in 3-rider collision (Plastic h

Postby Mike Sales » 19 May 2016, 3:49pm

[quote="sapperadam] "Those who are clearly anti-helmet are trotting out all the old facts about NZ and other places with helmet laws as a reason to not wear helmets. This is not the case. [/quote]

I guess this is aimed at me, I "trotted" out the NZ statistics.
Do you discount the evidence from NZ because it is old? Do you disbelieve it because they enacted the law in 1994? Or do you think helmets work differently depending on whether there is a compulsion law?
Did you look at the graph? It is very striking. When the law came into force there was a huge drop in cycling and a big jump in cyclist casualty rate.
The same happened in Australia. Wearing went from about a third to well above 90%. Cycling decreased noticeably but the number of cycling casualties stayed the same. So the rate increased.
How are these accounts compatible with the notion that helmet wearing saves lives? Lest you continue with the idea that it is a law which stops helmets working as they should, here is an extract from the New York Times
.

Millions of parents take it as an article of faith that putting a bicycle helmet on their children, or themselves, will help keep them out of harm's way.

But new data raise questions about that assumption. The number of head injuries sustained in bicycle accidents has increased 10 percent since 1991, even as helmet use has risen sharply, according to figures compiled by the Consumer Product Safety Commission. With ridership declining over the same period, the rate of head injuries among bicyclists has increased 51 percent even as the use of bicycle helmets has become widespread.

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Re: "Chopper" Cyclist killed in 3-rider collision (Plastic h

Postby roubaixtuesday » 19 May 2016, 3:53pm

So we should start making fun of helmet-wearers.


I don't have any objection to wearing helmets. I just think we should be rational and realistic about the potential benefits (small).

I also think that helmet refusniks can be rather OOT in their visceral opposition; I think the downsides of wearing one are also pretty small.

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Re: Cyclist killed in three-rider collision in Lancashire

Postby Mike Sales » 19 May 2016, 3:54pm

sapperadam wrote:How are you going to enforce this for instance, that is part of the consideration, and is (thankfully) the reason we don't have a helmet law for cyclists.


I am afraid that the Australian police have no difficulty enforcing helmet wearing. For instance'

From 2000 to 2003, South Australian cyclists paid AUD500,000 in fines for not wearing helmets

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Re: "Chopper" Cyclist killed in 3-rider collision (Plastic h

Postby Bicycler » 19 May 2016, 3:56pm

BrianFox wrote:
sapperadam wrote: Those who are clearly anti-helmet are trotting out all the old facts about NZ and other places with helmet laws as a reason to not wear helmets. This is not the case.


I guess this is aimed at me, I "trotted" out the NZ statistics.
Do you discount the evidence from NZ because it is old? Do you disbelieve it because they enacted the law in 1994? Or do you think helmets work differently depending on whether there is a compulsion law?


I think he's just saying that the negative consequences of previous helmet laws are not a reason for an individual not to wear a helmet. MJR makes a good counter-point that mass helmet wearing makes helmet laws more likely.

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Re: "Chopper" Cyclist killed in 3-rider collision (Plastic h

Postby Mike Sales » 19 May 2016, 4:07pm

Bicycler wrote:
I think he's just saying that the negative consequences of previous helmet laws are not a reason for an individual not to wear a helmet. MJR makes a good counter-point that mass helmet wearing makes helmet laws more likely.


My point was that a large increase in helmet wearing had very bad results. (reduction in cycling, increase in casualties for those persisting) I was asking whether it mattered that the increase in wearing was produced by compulsion or by persuasion. In either case the results indicate that helmet wearing does not seem to work.
The thing about laws is that they produce a large and rapid increase in wearing which makes the results particularly clear.

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Re: "Chopper" Cyclist killed in 3-rider collision (Plastic h

Postby meic » 19 May 2016, 4:08pm

I also think that helmet refusniks can be rather OOT in their visceral opposition; I think the downsides of wearing one are also pretty small.


There is a basic point of principle of the freedom to not be forced to do something just because of peer pressure.
Once you go down that route you can get coerced into all sorts of stupid dress codes, rituals, drug takings and superstitions just because they are only a minor imposition.

There are probably thousands of other things that you could buy for less and carry more easily than a cycle helmet and are of more use for the safety of self and others. I dont carry them either.
Yma o Hyd

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Re: "Chopper" Cyclist killed in 3-rider collision (Plastic h

Postby Bicycler » 19 May 2016, 4:20pm

Speaking strictly for me I reserve my visceral opposition for people who insist upon telling or compelling others to wear helmets. I have no real interest in telling helmet wearers not to wear theirs (though I do understand why some people like MJR do).

Downsides are hard to quantify and vary from person to person. Evidently for some the requirement to wear a helmet means that they don't cycle instead of cycle so for them there are major downsides. I own one and will wear it if mandated but I find it an uncomfortable experience, particularly with my tendency to overheat. It significantly detracts from my enjoyment of cycling. I'm in good company, Mick F and CJ of this forum can't get along with them despite spending much time and money on good helmets. Others find helmets no hassle at all. On issues of comfort we can't always assume that our experience applies equally to the next person - otherwise I'd be telling you never to bother changing a bike's saddle because I've never found a stock one uncomfortable.

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Re: "Chopper" Cyclist killed in 3-rider collision (Plastic h

Postby Mick F » 19 May 2016, 4:45pm

I was thinking about my Specialized S3 only this morning.
Excellent helmet, light, cool, good fit, secure. All the things you want from a helmet.

Except now that I've lost all my hair, it's like wearing a plastic strap round bare skin. The plastic is sharp and hard and the inside top of the helmet is hard, rough and unforgiving. The mere thought of wearing it now fills me with dread.
Yes. I've fitted the pads, and fitted extra pads.

I know, wear a hat underneath! :shock:
What an brilliant idea!
Tried it.
Rubbish.
Too hot, looks stupid.

I know, buy another helmet!
Try them out in the shops!
Tried it.
Also rubbish.

What I want from a helmet ............ if I wanted a helmet again ............ would be a soft-on-the-inside one.

The thing is, I've spent just most of my cycling life before helmets even came on the scene. It was as late as 2005 before I used one, and less than ten years later, I've stopped using one. Do I miss them?
Do I 'eckers like! :D
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: "Chopper" Cyclist killed in 3-rider collision (Plastic h

Postby mjr » 19 May 2016, 5:05pm

Mick F wrote:I know, wear a hat underneath! :shock:

As well as too hot and stupid-looking, Specialized specifically tell you not to do that in the manual, as I think I've mentioned before.

But, as Mick F notes, we cycled for years before wearing helmets and weren't smacking our heads on the floor half as much as helmet-wearers seem to. When I used to go sliding down the road (most winters, as I lived in the countryside and my route to school wasn't gritted), I'm sure I used to be able to hold my head up off the road. When I went over head-first (rarely but I do remember a couple of times), I always managed to get something else down first. Maybe if my head had a heavy helmet on, I wouldn't have, and that's why so many helmets get smashed? Is it the ultimate self-perpetuating product?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Re: "Chopper" Cyclist killed in 3-rider collision (Plastic h

Postby irc » 19 May 2016, 5:24pm

mjr wrote:we cycled for years before wearing helmets and weren't smacking our heads on the floor half as much as helmet-wearers seem to.


Risk compensation? Maybe some helmet wearers crash more often?

Then there is the tendency for the protective affect of a helmet to be thought of as more important than avoiding a crash in the first place. A good example being the incident blogged about by Bez of this here parish.

http://beyondthekerb.org.uk/2014/12/12/ ... -happened/

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Re: "Chopper" Cyclist killed in 3-rider collision (Plastic h

Postby smcknighty » 19 May 2016, 8:49pm

Person killed. Argument about helmets commences


I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my wobbly bog brush using hovercraft full of eels

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Re: "Chopper" Cyclist killed in 3-rider collision (Plastic h

Postby horizon » 19 May 2016, 9:00pm

smcknighty wrote:Person killed. Argument about helmets commences


Actually it started a long time before this incident. And it wasn't started by people who don't believe in helmets. And indeed if we are to believe the incessant campaigning we should all be paying complete (and obviously inappropriate) attention to it. This horrible accident has nothing to with helmets but we will be made to believe it does.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher

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Re: "Chopper" Cyclist killed in 3-rider collision (Plastic h

Postby MartinC » 20 May 2016, 8:35am

Mick F wrote:...................Excellent helmet, light, cool, good fit, secure. All the things you want from a helmet......................


Doesn't being effective in mitigating impacts feature in the list?

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Re: "Chopper" Cyclist killed in 3-rider collision (Plastic h

Postby Mick F » 20 May 2016, 8:42am

Of course it does.
You cannot control that because they are all built to the correct spec.
They are all the same in that respect.
The only differences are heat dissipation, comfort, security of the straps, weight ............ and what it looks like.

Other than that, you use your intuition and/or some product reviews.
Mick F. Cornwall