Lawmaking by the bereaved?

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
axel_knutt
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Re: Lawmaking by the bereaved?

Postby axel_knutt » 5 Oct 2016, 11:32am

bovlomov wrote:Does it happen in any other area?


Yes of course it does. Victims of a train crash suddenly become experts on the design of railway signalling systems, Jenny Tong got the wiring regulations changed after her daughter was electrocuted by drilling into a power cable. Just wait until an MP has a relative die in a cycle crash and see how many MPs are insensitive enough to vote against their friend's call for compulsory helmets.
Last edited by axel_knutt on 5 Oct 2016, 11:48am, edited 1 time in total.
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axel_knutt
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Re: Lawmaking by the bereaved?

Postby axel_knutt » 5 Oct 2016, 11:46am

Psamathe wrote:Make us aware of the risks but give us the freedom to take them.

You could sometimes be forgiven for wondering whether people actually want to be treated like adults though. There are numerous examples of where science/the government provides people with the information with which to make informed decisions about whether they prefer their enjoyment or reduced risk, and it's very common to choose the enjoyment but then dismiss the science so they can pretend they're having their cake and eating it as well.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
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bovlomov
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Re: Lawmaking by the bereaved?

Postby bovlomov » 5 Oct 2016, 12:12pm

axel_knutt wrote:
bovlomov wrote:Does it happen in any other area?


Yes of course it does. Victims of a train crash suddenly become experts on the design of railway signalling systems, Jenny Tong got the wiring regulations changed after her daughter was electrocuted by drilling into a power cable. Just wait until an MP has a relative die in a cycle crash and see how many MPs are willing to vote against their friend's call for compulsory helmets.

I had been thinking about Jenny Tonge. In that case (her daughter's death), the kitchen fitters had buried an unprotected cable in the wall, not deep enough, running at an angle from the fuseboard to the cooker hood. Almost everything about that was contrary to wiring regulations and established good practice. Anyway, Tonge was inspired to promote Part 'P', which is expensive and highly bureaucratic. I don't know how many lives it has saved, but it hasn't stopped cowboys doing electrical work - both outside and within Part 'P'.

So I suppose Part 'P' is to electrical safety what the cycle helmet is to cycling safety: i.e. over-rated and often counterproductive. Even so, Tonge's experiences have a more direct link to her promotion of electrical regulation than, for example, the sleepwalker who fell off the balcony, who campaigns for mandatory cycle helmets.

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mjr
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Re: Lawmaking by the bereaved?

Postby mjr » 5 Oct 2016, 12:20pm

Psamathe wrote:As you say it is difficult to make comment on the family response to this tragedy as we are reserved about sounding (or even being interpreted as being) critical of people when they are dealing with such a loss. There certainly are other directions their campaigning could take.

Indeed! If her husband wants to clutch at straws, he would do better to blame the highway authority for failing to keep the road in good repair IMO, not advocate forced crash helmets. Riding in the dark with no police around (two of the bikes behind her in the selfie appear unlit), especially if impaired through drink, who's to say that such a nasty law would have been followed anyway?
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horizon
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Re: Lawmaking by the bereaved?

Postby horizon » 6 Oct 2016, 10:31pm

Well his message got through:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... w-06102016

around 19.50
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher

irc
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Re: Lawmaking by the bereaved?

Postby irc » 6 Oct 2016, 11:03pm

Someone should have asked the reporter why his helmet chinstrap was dangling loose if he thought they were so important.

loosestrap (Small).jpg


Thought the Cycling UK CEO was OK. "freedom of choice", more about better infrastructure, be alert, look where you're going, "look out for each other"

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Re: Lawmaking by the bereaved?

Postby Ben@Forest » 7 Oct 2016, 10:07am

It's slightly OT but the 'preaching by the converted' has always struck me as odd. This is, I think, most seen by former drug addicts (indeed many years ago at school we had a 'don't do drugs' talk by someone who 'had done drugs'). And it's struck me that though this is seen as fine would schools do a talk by a reformed armed robber - or a former paedophile?

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bovlomov
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Re: Lawmaking by the bereaved?

Postby bovlomov » 7 Oct 2016, 10:36am

Ben@Forest wrote:It's slightly OT but the 'preaching by the converted' has always struck me as odd. This is, I think, most seen by former drug addicts (indeed many years ago at school we had a 'don't do drugs' talk by someone who 'had done drugs'). And it's struck me that though this is seen as fine would schools do a talk by a reformed armed robber - or a former paedophile?

Are you talking about "I did wear a helmet but now I've seen the light" or "I didn't wear a helmet but now I've seen the light"?

I've either always been enlightened or I've never seen the light, depending on your point of view.

Preaching by the converted is fine, as long as it comes with a large dose of humility. What I can't stomach is people who are dogmatic and dismissive at one end of a spectrum, but then move to dogmatic and dismissive at the other end, without any period of reflection between.

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Re: Lawmaking by the bereaved?

Postby thirdcrank » 7 Oct 2016, 11:27am

This thread has reminded me of Chris Boardman who's been known for a while as a campaigner for improved conditions for cyclists. A well-known figure but down-to-earth and bordering on self-deprecating and skilled in getting his message over. Bereaved when his mother was killed while cycling, he didn't become a convert because he was already campaigning.

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bovlomov
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Re: Lawmaking by the bereaved?

Postby bovlomov » 7 Oct 2016, 11:30am

thirdcrank wrote:This thread has reminded me of Chris Boardman who's been known for a while as a campaigner for improved conditions for cyclists. A well-known figure but down-to-earth and bordering on self-deprecating and skilled in getting his message over. Bereaved when his mother was killed while cycling, he didn't become a convert because he was already campaigning.

Well, you would like him, wouldn't you! He's one of them pragmatists.

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Re: Lawmaking by the bereaved?

Postby thirdcrank » 7 Oct 2016, 12:06pm

bovlomov wrote: ... Well, you would like him, wouldn't you! He's one of them pragmatists.


I've just searched my posts on the term pragmat* and I've only found one recently which was a reference to a police surgeon taking a blood specimen from somebody who insisted it should be taken from his membrum virile Can I have a clue?

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bovlomov
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Re: Lawmaking by the bereaved?

Postby bovlomov » 7 Oct 2016, 12:17pm

thirdcrank wrote: Can I have a clue?

This

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Re: Lawmaking by the bereaved?

Postby thirdcrank » 7 Oct 2016, 1:12pm

bovlomov wrote: ...
This


OK that's the one that came up in my search.

So why "them pragmatists" ?

I don't think that's your normal usage and for something like 67 years it's not been mine (ie since I began primary school.)

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bovlomov
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Re: Lawmaking by the bereaved?

Postby bovlomov » 7 Oct 2016, 1:28pm

thirdcrank wrote:So why "them pragmatists" ?

I don't think that's your normal usage and for something like 67 years it's not been mine (ie since I began primary school.)

Sorry. I'm just filling up the internet with words.

It was only an observation that Boardman - accused of hypocrisy for selling helmets while telling us that they aren't worth discussing as a safety aid - is, in fact, an arch pragmatist. He's interested in promoting what works, but otherwise leaving people to their own choices. Remembering your thoughts on pragmatism and, I'd say, most of your posts, it seemed obvious that you would be a Boardmanite.

That's all. Boring, isn't it!

Ben@Forest
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Re: Lawmaking by the bereaved?

Postby Ben@Forest » 7 Oct 2016, 2:14pm

bovlomov wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote:It's slightly OT but the 'preaching by the converted' has always struck me as odd. This is, I think, most seen by former drug addicts (indeed many years ago at school we had a 'don't do drugs' talk by someone who 'had done drugs'). And it's struck me that though this is seen as fine would schools do a talk by a reformed armed robber - or a former paedophile?

Are you talking about "I did wear a helmet but now I've seen the light" or "I didn't wear a helmet but now I've seen the light"?


It could be either and as said, it's different in that in this case being discussed the cyclist cannot 'convert'. Her husband has become a member of the latter day believers in helmets. Now he'll preach this to everyone who'll listen despite the other factors in the case which may or may not have contributed to his wife's death.

I am concerned by such kneejerk reactions (though there are far more established and high profile organisations which are pushing the compulsory helmet campaign). I just think that people with a close emotional attachment are not always the most objective or reasoned thinkers.