"Don't forget to wear a helmet"

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
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meic
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Re: "Don't forget to wear a helmet"

Postby meic » 25 May 2017, 4:46pm

It isnt about you individually or any single specific crash, it is about the great statistical collection of data in a population.

By asking everybody who receives attention from the emergency services whether they wear a helmet or not, we have one more piece in the puzzle.
Yma o Hyd

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Mick F
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Re: "Don't forget to wear a helmet"

Postby Mick F » 25 May 2017, 4:55pm

meic wrote:It isnt about you individually or any single specific crash, it is about the great statistical collection of data in a population.

By asking everybody who receives attention from the emergency services whether they wear a helmet or not, we have one more piece in the puzzle.
I see that of course.
They may as well poll all cyclists and ask them if they wear helmets or not.

She asked me if I was wearing a helmet.
I was, but the question was pointless as I hadn't hit my head ............... and she knew I hadn't banged my head. She could see.

Helmet wearing and accident data is only valid if it is to do with heads.
If I come off my bike tomorrow and bang my head and go to the hospital, and they ask me if I was wearing a helmet or not ............ is a good and valid question.
Mick F. Cornwall

landsurfer
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Re: "Don't forget to wear a helmet"

Postby landsurfer » 25 May 2017, 4:59pm

Possibly anyone presenting at an A&E department with a head injury should be asked if they were wearing a helmet.
I have encountered 2 groups of hillwalkers, one German, one Italian, wearing cycle helmets on mountain walks in the UK.
I was with a group of hill walkers, mostly German again, in Cuba who all wore cycle helmets .....
"Why", was the question, "In case we trip or fall over ", was the genuine answer .....

Any Squash players out there wear clear safety glasses ?
The Road Goes On Forever

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Re: "Don't forget to wear a helmet"

Postby Bez » 25 May 2017, 5:04pm

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meic
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Re: "Don't forget to wear a helmet"

Postby meic » 25 May 2017, 5:44pm

They may as well poll all cyclists and ask them if they wear helmets or not.

They have to do that as well. Then they can see if helmet wearers are getting medical attention of any sort more frequently than non-wearers. They need to know if members of the two groups are equally liable to crash in order to work out all the relevant statistics.

The case in the Netherlands where helmets appear to make head injuries worse, can be explained away by the fact that helmet wearers are just a much higher risk group. In the UK it isnt that obvious and additional data like this can help determine if that is the case here too.
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Re: "Don't forget to wear a helmet"

Postby AdamS » 25 May 2017, 9:08pm

Mick F wrote:Helmet wearing and accident data is only valid if it is to do with heads.

Not if you accept the risk compensation argument. If risk compensation occurs, we might expect to see helmet wearers suffer more non-head injuries than non-helmet wearers.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: "Don't forget to wear a helmet"

Postby The utility cyclist » 25 May 2017, 9:38pm

meic wrote:
They may as well poll all cyclists and ask them if they wear helmets or not.

They have to do that as well. Then they can see if helmet wearers are getting medical attention of any sort more frequently than non-wearers. They need to know if members of the two groups are equally liable to crash in order to work out all the relevant statistics.

The case in the Netherlands where helmets appear to make head injuries worse, can be explained away by the fact that helmet wearers are just a much higher risk group. In the UK it isnt that obvious and additional data like this can help determine if that is the case here too.


Given what we know shouldn't we just ban helmets for those riders that are going faster/taking more risk (sports cyclists/Strava W@@@@rs/commuter racers). If the statistics tell us if you don't wear a helmet you're statistically safer/take less risk logic would dictate that you mandatorily ban that thing that makes outcomes worse or even happen at all. A reverse australia if you like but with an actual positive effect on people and cycling as a whole.
it's exactly the same comparing gridiron to rugby, one is very much likely than the other to cause you serious head injuries with both short and long term negative affects, the other with no 'safety' aids or protection relies upon the participants to take responsibility for the safety of each other and enforcing of rules that are there to protect the innocent and punish the wrong doers. Player welfare is now a massive priority in rugby league (I don't follow kick n clap)

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Re: "Don't forget to wear a helmet"

Postby Tangled Metal » 25 May 2017, 9:51pm

It's information Mick. Do you know for sure it's got no academic value? Do you even know whether that was a question reserved purely for cyclists? Probably was and might not even be part of the questionnaire she's using we don't know. However it's information that could have value as part of the on trend tendency for "big data" where researchers grab lots of data that's seemingly unimportant noise then mining it for something useful.

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Re: "Don't forget to wear a helmet"

Postby Mistik-ka » 25 May 2017, 11:12pm

Mick F wrote:When I had "off" in 2008, … The nurse asked lots of questions as she was treating me, and input the info into the computer.
The Helmet Question shouldn't have been asked at all. … it was a totally irrelevant and pointless fact.

"Irrelevant" facts can be hugely important when a patient's condition doesn't fit nicely with the diagnosis. Here's a scenario that has nothing to do with the efficacy of helmets, statistical analysis, or anyone's ideas about helmet use:

Suppose you'd been given a big dose of analgesic to deal with the pain of your injuries, and half an hour later your behaviour was becoming … well, just a bit odd (or odder :wink: ) or it was difficult to wake you up. First hypothesis: too much medication, can we give an antidote or at least monitor you closely for a further drop in responsiveness or respiratory rate? Second hypothesis if you had a big bruise on your skull you might have a head injury and life-threatening swelling in your is skull — you need to have an MRI of your head to check for swelling right now! Third hypothesis since you were wearing a helmet the helmet might have protected your scalp from abrasion or bruising, but you might have a head injury from sudden deceleration when your head came to a sudden stop inside the helmet, so an urgent MRI might be a good idea after all. You told the nurse you didn't lose consciousness when you came off, but if you'd hit your head … how would you know?

This is pretty simplistic, and not intended as an argument no one should wear a helmet because it makes things more complicated after a crash, but in an emergency situation there is rarely such a thing as too much information. It's a good idea to ask about helmet use to fill out the picture, 'just in case'.

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Re: "Don't forget to wear a helmet"

Postby nez » 26 May 2017, 10:25am

It would be difficult to extend your argument to cover questions about ethnicity, which is also invariably asked and which I bet Mick was asked. Presumably they need to know are black people more accident prone than white people or the other way round. Do Chinamen get more injuries than Irishmen? Do Poles have better bike balance than Iranians? The answers to these and other vital questions can be derived from a simple NHS interview. Whether that information has any utility or not is another matter. Just yesterday I went for a simple hospital test and was asked to choose my ethnicity. I quite fancied being a sultry Sumatran or a lugubrious Lapp, but I settled on 'white British.' Perhaps I should have answered 'you asked me here, don't you know?'

I love that cartoon further up the thread, by the way.

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Re: "Don't forget to wear a helmet"

Postby Tangled Metal » 26 May 2017, 12:11pm

Ethnicity questions could be used for monitoring quality of service across the ethnic range. Monitoring outcomes in case of a potential cultural effect that could affect the quality of the outcomes. Is there a higher rate of poor results from certain drugs because a particular section of society has a higher rate than the rest of alternative treatments that affect prescribed drug efficacy?

Just an example. Without the information being gathered you might miss something important. I'm not saying it's worth collecting but if you have more data there could be a benefit derived from it.

nez
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Re: "Don't forget to wear a helmet"

Postby nez » 26 May 2017, 12:14pm

"Is there a higher rate of poor results from certain drugs because a particular section of society has a higher rate than the rest of alternative treatments that affect prescribed drug efficacy?"

sorry but this bit will need putting into English for me. :D

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Mick F
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Re: "Don't forget to wear a helmet"

Postby Mick F » 26 May 2017, 2:06pm

nez dans le guidon wrote:It would be difficult to extend your argument to cover questions about ethnicity, which is also invariably asked and which I bet Mick was asked. Presumably they need to know are black people more accident prone than white people or the other way round. Do Chinamen get more injuries than Irishmen? Do Poles have better bike balance than Iranians? The answers to these and other vital questions can be derived from a simple NHS interview. Whether that information has any utility or not is another matter. Just yesterday I went for a simple hospital test and was asked to choose my ethnicity. I quite fancied being a sultry Sumatran or a lugubrious Lapp, but I settled on 'white British.' Perhaps I should have answered 'you asked me here, don't you know?'

I love that cartoon further up the thread, by the way.

+1 for your post, and +1 for the cartoon. (I've dragged it onto my desktop so it's visible on my iPhone via my iCloud account.)
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: "Don't forget to wear a helmet"

Postby Bez » 26 May 2017, 2:23pm

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Re: "Don't forget to wear a helmet"

Postby RickH » 26 May 2017, 2:24pm

nez dans le guidon wrote:"Is there a higher rate of poor results from certain drugs because a particular section of society has a higher rate than the rest of alternative treatments that affect prescribed drug efficacy?"

sorry but this bit will need putting into English for me. :D

I think what it is saying is there may be something that a particular section of society uses.

Making something up completely off the top of my head, maybe there is a traditional herbal remedy for constipation popular among folk of Caribbean origin that causes some blood thinning drugs to be more effective. The ethnicity and whether they take (or have recently taken) that remedy is likely to be of relevance if someone is admitted following a cardiac event or a stroke. You might want to start with a lower dose and/or monitor the situation more closely than normal.