Helmets for use on your arm?

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
Tangled Metal
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Helmets for use on your arm?

Postby Tangled Metal » 10 Aug 2017, 12:27pm

A family member recently broke his arm falling off a bike. At A&E we got asked the helmet question to which our answer was no helmet. That got the usual response "must wear a helmet". Now I've never had that before from a doctor so I thought it a myth that they insist a helmet must be worn to save us from accidents unrelated to the head.

So out of devilment I thought of a small.helmet attached to the young child's arm in future rides.

Not serious but I was very good in not biting. It was very hard because I really wanted to show the guy how idiotic it is to bring up head injury risk for an arm injury. The child owns a helmet but it's a heavy child helmet so would guarantee head contact when helmet-less there would be none. I'm glad to say my boy gave the doctor a dirty look. A 4 year old with more common sense than a registrar!

Can medical professionals keep to what they know and leave risk analysis to the experts (one highly respected expert switched from wearing helmets to going bare after looking into it IIRC)? Fix his broken arm nothing else please.

Of course if he really wants to meddle in other fields can he do a service on my car. That would be useful.

jazzkat
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Re: Helmets for use on your arm?

Postby jazzkat » 13 Aug 2017, 11:10am

What you "need" is some of this
Image
Just the ticket for nipping to the shops/ride in the park
:lol:

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Cunobelin
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Re: Helmets for use on your arm?

Postby Cunobelin » 13 Aug 2017, 12:58pm

Tangled Metal wrote:A family member recently broke his arm falling off a bike. At A&E we got asked the helmet question to which our answer was no helmet. That got the usual response "must wear a helmet". Now I've never had that before from a doctor so I thought it a myth that they insist a helmet must be worn to save us from accidents unrelated to the head.

So out of devilment I thought of a small.helmet attached to the young child's arm in future rides.

Not serious but I was very good in not biting. It was very hard because I really wanted to show the guy how idiotic it is to bring up head injury risk for an arm injury. The child owns a helmet but it's a heavy child helmet so would guarantee head contact when helmet-less there would be none. I'm glad to say my boy gave the doctor a dirty look. A 4 year old with more common sense than a registrar!

Can medical professionals keep to what they know and leave risk analysis to the experts (one highly respected expert switched from wearing helmets to going bare after looking into it IIRC)? Fix his broken arm nothing else please.

Of course if he really wants to meddle in other fields can he do a service on my car. That would be useful.



The medical profession are infamous for ignoring the concept of "evidence based practice" that should be the keystone of their practice

Challenge them with a simple question as to what peer reviewed evidence they have based this decision upon, and watch them flounder

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Cunobelin
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Re: Helmets for use on your arm?

Postby Cunobelin » 13 Aug 2017, 1:13pm

I remember there being a campaign against motorcyclists carrying a spare helmet on their arm

If they came off the leverage of the helmet would snap the main bone in the upper arm

axel_knutt
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Re: Helmets for use on your arm?

Postby axel_knutt » 13 Aug 2017, 1:19pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Can medical professionals keep to what they know and leave risk analysis to the experts

If you want to know about risk you don't ask a doctor or policeman, they spend all day looking at accident victims so they have a distorted perception of the probability of accidents occurring. See availability heuristic.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

softlips
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Re: Helmets for use on your arm?

Postby softlips » 13 Aug 2017, 3:22pm

It's for statistical reasons they ask, same with seat belts or was.

Although after working in A&E myself and seeing deaths and worse which would have been avoided with a helmet I'd agree with the previous post.

irc
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Re: Helmets for use on your arm?

Postby irc » 13 Aug 2017, 5:29pm

axel_knutt wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:Can medical professionals keep to what they know and leave risk analysis to the experts

If you want to know about risk you don't ask a doctor or policeman, they spend all day looking at accident victims so they have a distorted perception of the probability of accidents occurring. See availability heuristic.


I beg to differ. Other than traffic cops the police deal with a wide range of stuff apart from RTAs and other accidents. Because serious accidents are rare events. I spent 30 years in the police dealing with RTAs on a weekly basis usually car v car. I only dealt with one cyclist with a head injury. He was wearing a helmet. The accident could have been avoided by not riding down a steep hill with a known brake fault. Most head injuries I saw were from falls or assaults and there was more often than not alcohol involved.

To put that 1 serious cycling head injury in context ........ in the same period I dealt or was first on the scene at more sudden deaths than I can remember, but including 2 cot deaths, around 6 drownings, a few hangings, other suicides, 1 firearms death and so on.

Serious or fatal cycling accidents are rare and many that happen are avoidable. Serious cycling crashes didn't register on my regular workload.

axel_knutt
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Re: Helmets for use on your arm?

Postby axel_knutt » 13 Aug 2017, 5:52pm

irc wrote:
axel_knutt wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:Can medical professionals keep to what they know and leave risk analysis to the experts

If you want to know about risk you don't ask a doctor or policeman, they spend all day looking at accident victims so they have a distorted perception of the probability of accidents occurring. See availability heuristic.


I beg to differ. Other than traffic cops the police deal with a wide range of stuff apart from RTAs and other accidents. Because serious accidents are rare events. I spent 30 years in the police dealing with RTAs on a weekly basis usually car v car. I only dealt with one cyclist with a head injury. He was wearing a helmet. The accident could have been avoided by not riding down a steep hill with a known brake fault. Most head injuries I saw were from falls or assaults and there was more often than not alcohol involved.

To put that 1 serious cycling head injury in context ........ in the same period I dealt or was first on the scene at more sudden deaths than I can remember, but including 2 cot deaths, around 6 drownings, a few hangings, other suicides, 1 firearms death and so on.

Serious or fatal cycling accidents are rare and many that happen are avoidable. Serious cycling crashes didn't register on my regular workload.

The number you've omitted is the millions you never see because they haven't had an accident.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

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RickH
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Re: Helmets for use on your arm?

Postby RickH » 13 Aug 2017, 8:28pm

Asking everyone whether they were wearing a helmet is useful - how else would you get the statistics about whether wearing a helmet equates to a higher likelihood of an accident (whether a head injury or not)? Getting fewer non-helmet wearers presenting at A&E than helmet wearers compared to the statistics of helmet wearing overall will give you the figures. (Of course that doesn't explain why - that is a whole different discussion! :) )

Tangled Metal
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Re: Helmets for use on your arm?

Postby Tangled Metal » 22 Aug 2017, 10:59pm

What has a helmet to do with a broken arm? I can understand getting helmet use figures with cycling head injuries but not arm. If you present with a broken leg would a helmet being relevant? Data is only useful if related to the injury surely?

De Sisti
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Re: Helmets for use on your arm?

Postby De Sisti » 23 Aug 2017, 7:21am

softlips wrote:It's for statistical reasons they ask, same with seat belts or was.

Although after working in A&E myself and seeing deaths and worse which would have been avoided with a helmet I'd agree with the previous post.

What is worse than death? How can you be so sure the deaths would have been avoided if a helmet had been worn? Surely, the same incident,
under the same conditions, would have had to have taken place for a comparison to be made? :wink:

Tangled Metal
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Re: Helmets for use on your arm?

Postby Tangled Metal » 23 Aug 2017, 8:36am

He's a doctor, accept that word if God! Sorry but there is a feeling that ppl must take doctors as being right on these things. They see accidents and head injuries a lot in A&E so that gives them insight we don't have.

Seriously though in A&E, immediately after the event (accident), which are all pretty much unique, isn't the best way to prove tyre effectiveness of helmets. I also seriously doubt you'll prove anything by asking if someone was wearing a helmet if they mention cycling. I'm guessing that asking the question and recording it for head injuries only kind of focuses the matter. Having an arm injury being recorded as without a helmet if repeated enough times could affect the data creating irrelevant conclusions that really aren't correct.

I'm not pro or anti helmets. I wear one when I choose to. The times I wear one are because of a perceived or experienced risk of head injury that I feel a helmet might help with. A slow speed impact under specific conditions that seem close to the actual tests on helmets done in a lab. I will wear one when I'm encouraging my young child to accept his (indications are that helmets do offer a benefit to growing brains in a typical child's accident I believe).

My issue with helmet use and the studyof/pressure into wearing them is the dodgy nature of how they.go.about it. Things like tutting over not wearing a helmet when you've only come in with an arm injury (no head.contact probably because without the weight of the helmet). The way the doctor asks about helmet use when irrelevant. The way the default is that a helmet saves lives without even trying to find out. It's the default and feels like a marketing win over actual researched conclusions.

Whatever the truth, as long as the medics record helmet use alongside none head related.injuries I'll not respect the research carried out using that data.

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Audax67
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Re: Helmets for use on your arm?

Postby Audax67 » 23 Aug 2017, 2:42pm

jazzkat wrote:What you "need" is some of this
Image
Just the ticket for nipping to the shops/ride in the park
:lol:


Recommended wear for peaceful assemblies in Charlottesville.
Have we got time for another cuppa?

SilverBadge
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Re: Helmets for use on your arm?

Postby SilverBadge » 27 Aug 2017, 3:16pm

softlips wrote:It's for statistical reasons they ask, same with seat belts or was.

Although after working in A&E myself and seeing deaths and worse which would have been avoided with a helmet I'd agree with the previous post.


And with only 1% ? of A&E head injuries occurring to cyclists, why are they asking only cyclists, including ones without head injuries, about this and then lecturing them? Who is using this data?

Too soon to discuss Kim Briggs? Death by head injury, not wearing helmet. That's what they would have said about Alliston in a parallel universe.

landsurfer
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Re: Helmets for use on your arm?

Postby landsurfer » 27 Aug 2017, 3:59pm

softlips wrote:It's for statistical reasons they ask, same with seat belts or was.

Although after working in A&E myself and seeing deaths and worse which would have been avoided with a helmet I'd agree with the previous post.



What peer reviewed evidence do you have to support that statement ?
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