Cycling insurance without lids - does it still exist???

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
Psamathe
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Re: Cycling insurance without lids - does it still exist???

Postby Psamathe » 24 Nov 2017, 11:40pm

pjclinch wrote:.....
To quote Robert Heinlein, "Man is not a rational animal, he is a rationalising animal."

You start with the answer that boils down to your gut feeling (e.g. "cycle helmets are good and therefore should be used") and you selectively ignore, re-arrange, cherry-pick etc. evidence and arguments to support the predetermined conclusion. Since you're sure you're right the conclusion is the fundamental point and the arguments amount to reassurance rather than the way to get there.

We all do this to some extent, some are better than others at catching themselves.

Pete.

There was a fascinating Horizon on BBC4 yesterday evening about this (How we make decisions) that distinguished the two decision making mechanisms humans use. They suggested (or the research they were reporting/presenting suggested) that such shortcomings to our decision making process cannot really be "trained out" as they are very deeply set in our nature. They showed some research involving trained (US government) security analysts and amateurs who had to identify a terrorist threat based on provided information and they all (except one amateur?) decided early who they considered the terrorist was and then used confirmation bias to "get the wrong answer".

Ian

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mjr
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Re: Cycling insurance without lids - does it still exist???

Postby mjr » 30 Nov 2017, 11:38am

Psamathe wrote:There was a fascinating Horizon on BBC4 yesterday evening about this (How we make decisions) that distinguished the two decision making mechanisms humans use. They suggested (or the research they were reporting/presenting suggested) that such shortcomings to our decision making process cannot really be "trained out" as they are very deeply set in our nature.

And yet, a couple of the examples they used resulted in me giving the correct answer, which I think was because they used some statistical keyword (I think it was "likely") that kicked my mind from what they called System 1 into using my statistics education (which is probably System 2, even though I studied it so long from so young). I don't know if that's a known phenomenon and Kahneman's book is still on my "to read" pile, so I don't know how accurately Horizon summarised it. I suspect the truth is closer to pjclinch's idea of learning to catching oneself than the abandon-all-hope suggested by Horizon.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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bovlomov
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Re: Cycling insurance without lids - does it still exist???

Postby bovlomov » 30 Nov 2017, 7:59pm

mjr wrote: I suspect the truth is closer to pjclinch's idea of learning to catching oneself than the abandon-all-hope suggested by Horizon.

Indeed. I'd say the whole basis of civilisation is not denial of one's natural instincts and instant reactions, but being aware of their power and controlling them accordingly. None of us is immune from those forces - revenge, greed, tribalism, common sense - but we can all resist them to some degree, and we do. That's lucky, because if we acted upon all our instincts, the world would be even more of a bloodbath than it is today.

Ivor Tingting
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Re: Cycling insurance without lids - does it still exist???

Postby Ivor Tingting » 1 Dec 2017, 3:05am

FWIW I would always wear a cycle helmet when touring abroad as although I wear one at home, but if I chose not to it probably would not be an issue, but often you are not familiar with a country you are visiting and the last thing you want to do is to attract attention say from zealous police or increase the risk of injury when say getting hit on the head by stones thrown by youths in Ethiopia as you cycle by. The last thing I would want is to have to remain in a dump of a country stuck in a grotty hospital because an insurer was refusing to pay for an air ambulance to fly me home and I had no way of paying for it myself. To then put my family through hell would be extremely selfish and foolish. It does seem to be a generational thing, some older cyclists seem to pathologically detest helmets, cutting off their nose to spite their face sort of POV. I can't understand it.
"Zat is ze reel prowoking qwestion Mr Paxman." - Peer Steinbruck, German Finance Minister 31/03/2009.

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mjr
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Re: Cycling insurance without lids - does it still exist???

Postby mjr » 1 Dec 2017, 8:47am

If you don't understand it, try reading some of the reams written trying to explain why we don't like this useless distraction measure. Pathological is a naive belief that helmets help and refusing to look at the evidence... is clinging to System 1 thinking even when you know it's unsafe a mental disorder?
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Ivor Tingting
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Re: Cycling insurance without lids - does it still exist???

Postby Ivor Tingting » 8 Dec 2017, 2:47am

mjr wrote:If you don't understand it, try reading some of the reams written trying to explain why we don't like this useless distraction measure. Pathological is a naive belief that helmets help and refusing to look at the evidence... is clinging to System 1 thinking even when you know it's unsafe a mental disorder?


I have no interest in reading the reams that you claim have been written or not, nor to consider it a useless distraction. Do what ever you want but just think of your family when you are laying injured in a hospital in a far off land and can't afford the air ambulance home as you weren't wearing a helmet so your insurer won't pay for you to be flown home.
"Zat is ze reel prowoking qwestion Mr Paxman." - Peer Steinbruck, German Finance Minister 31/03/2009.

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gaz
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Re: Cycling insurance without lids - does it still exist???

Postby gaz » 8 Dec 2017, 8:06am

Ivor Tingting wrote:... The last thing I would want is to have to remain in a dump of a country stuck in a grotty hospital because an insurer was refusing to pay for an air ambulance to fly me home and I had no way of paying for it myself. ...

People looking for travel insurance that will cover them when cycling overseas without a helmet have similar concerns. This thread is aimed at helping them to find suitable insurance cover whilst leaving everyone free to make their own helmet choice.

Please note that gaz is not FCA regulated and cannot assess individual needs for insurance. You will not receive advice or recommendations from gaz about them. Please direct your queries to your chosen insurance provider, who may be either vaguely reassuring or reassuringly vague in their response (wonderful phrase, my thanks to mjr for providing it on another thread). Posted on a forum that contains track nuts and cannot be guaranteed track nut free. Hand wash only. Do not iron.
2020 : To redundancy ... and beyond!

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mjr
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Re: Cycling insurance without lids - does it still exist???

Postby mjr » 8 Feb 2018, 3:04pm

Ivor Tingting wrote:I have no interest in reading the reams that you claim have been written or not, nor to consider it a useless distraction. Do what ever you want but just think of your family when you are laying injured in a hospital in a far off land and can't afford the air ambulance home as you weren't wearing a helmet so your insurer won't pay for you to be flown home.

My insurer doesn't require helmets. Feel free to think of your family when you are lying injured in a hospital in a far off land waiting for the air ambulance home as you were wearing a helmet and thereby increased your injury risk. Alternatively, think of me still happily cycling.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.