Police advice to wear cycle helmets

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
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Cunobelin
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Re: Police advice to wear cycle helmets

Postby Cunobelin » 8 Oct 2017, 4:22pm

Mick F wrote:
Si wrote:No way am I arguing for h*lm*ts, but I am arguing against not interpreting data correctly when making a decision on them.
Utterly agree with you.

I actually can't remember which one of these numerous threads the graph came from, or the background to it, but if it were in favour of cyclists wearing helmets (rather than the other way round), you could bet your bottom dollar that the pro-hemeters would be publicising it right left and centre. :lol:

It may have issues with respect to statistics and analysis, but it's a good graphic representation of the different risks in different situations. It shows that the figures can be interpreted in different ways.



I see it very simply, look at the number of head injuries presenting to A and E, actual events as opposed to an ephemeral and disputable risk.

... and for the seeker of the argument lets assume helmets have a positive effect

Compulsory helmets would arguably save a few hundred cyclists from head injury either through mitigation or prevention

Yet the same intervention would mitigate or prevent tens of thousands of head injuries if all these groups had worn helmets

That is the basic angle , look at the head injuries that have occurred

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Mick F
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Re: Police advice to wear cycle helmets

Postby Mick F » 8 Oct 2017, 4:38pm

.......................so we should all wear helmets .......... permanently?
Mick F. Cornwall

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Cunobelin
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Re: Police advice to wear cycle helmets

Postby Cunobelin » 8 Oct 2017, 5:45pm

Mick F wrote:.......................so we should all wear helmets .......... permanently?



The logical and irrevocable progression of the pro-helmet argument

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Wanlock Dod
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Re: Police advice to wear cycle helmets

Postby Wanlock Dod » 8 Oct 2017, 6:33pm

Cunobelin wrote:...accept the deaths and suffering of the at risk groups

This certainly seems to be what it's all about

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Re: Police advice to wear cycle helmets

Postby Steady rider » 9 Oct 2017, 9:52am

rmurphy195 » 7 Oct 2017, 8:53pm wrote;

Steady rider wrote:
Anyone in A&E are probably at a disadvantage in terms of assessing helmets, they see injuries on a regular basis. They cannot assess overall risk/likely gains/likely disadvantages, they are seeing a one sided view of a multi sided problem.

You joke, surely? I must say Its a long time since I read anything so ridiculous.

They - and police and fire officers - also see the upset relatives of victims and quite rightly have a view that is not one sided, it is realistic. I will never, ever forget the face of the ambulance attendant that revisited my cubicle in casualty after i was knocked off my bike, and the sheer relief on her face on finding I was OK. Nor the glances to/from the bruise on my forehead and my damaged helmet, which gave me a damn site more protection than any statistic.


All of the above have experience of seeing injuries, they generally do not have data on total hours cycled, to determine risk per km or hour cycled, with and without a helmet. A 2015 report, ‘Overestimation of the effectiveness of the bicycle helmet by the use of odds ratios’ details;
Three cases could be found in the literature with sufficient data to assess both risk ratios and odds ratios: the Netherlands, Victoria (Australia) and Seattle (U.S.A). In all three cases, the problem of overestimation of the effectiveness of the helmet by using odds ratios did occur. The effect ranges from small (+ 8 % ) to extremely large ( > + 400 %). Contrary to the original claim of these studies, in two out of three cases the risk of getting a head injury proved not to be lower for helmeted cyclists. Moreover, in all three cases the risk of getting a non-head injury proved to be higher for cyclists with a helmet.
Refer;
http://www.fietsberaad.nl/?lang=nl&repo ... dds+ratios

It is therefore weak for the medial profession to just by comparing injuries.

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Re: Police advice to wear cycle helmets

Postby Steady rider » 9 Oct 2017, 10:04am

thirdcrank wrote
In effect, the crime prevention group of an unidentified parish/ town (council?) summarises a part of the HC. As originally posted, there was nothing obvious in the text to connect this to the "police" thread title. There's now a link to advice from W Yorks Police issued at some time during the preparations for the TdeF in Yorkshire July 2014.

This is the signal for YAHT (Yet another helmet thread.)

What's the plan? We don't know the council involved so we can't lobby them to ignore the HC. I fancy it would be futile lobbying a police force to ignore it. To paraphrase a well-know satirical mag, please see previous helmet threads ad nauseam.


The particular parish comes under the Humberside Police force, it was giving general advice. With a cycle safety review in progress, the police may add there view, it needs to be fully challenged, in all areas if possible. They need to be held accountable for what they say and do. The Highway Code helmet advice was included in 1993, research since then shows the evidence for helmet use is not conclusive, the Code should have been revised some years ago.

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YAHT

Postby thirdcrank » 9 Oct 2017, 3:28pm

Steady rider wrote: ... The particular parish comes under the Humberside Police force, it was giving general advice. With a cycle safety review in progress, the police may add there view, it needs to be fully challenged, in all areas if possible. They need to be held accountable for what they say and do. The Highway Code helmet advice was included in 1993, research since then shows the evidence for helmet use is not conclusive, the Code should have been revised some years ago.


All fair enough but will any of it be achieved by what I've described as YAHT on here?

Calls for empiric evidence countered with resorts to common sense. Anybody who wants to change the HC needs a plan and a lot of energy and resources. A megabucks backer would be handy but there's no money to be made from selling "nothing" as compared with selling expanded polystyrene at inflated prices.

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Re: Police advice to wear cycle helmets

Postby AlaninWales » 9 Oct 2017, 4:42pm

Cunobelin wrote:
Mick F wrote:.......................so we should all wear helmets .......... permanently?



The logical and irrevocable progression of the pro-helmet argument

Well, at least softlips follows the evidence to its conclusion:
softlips wrote:I always wear one,...

I wonder if (s)he takes it off to shower (what are the statistics for head injuries in showers?). :lol:

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Re: Police advice to wear cycle helmets

Postby pjclinch » 9 Oct 2017, 4:54pm

AlaninWales wrote:I wonder if (s)he takes it off to shower (what are the statistics for head injuries in showers?). :lol:


This is a Daily Fail headline, which is a bit like a statistic (for some values of statistic)...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2968238/Mother-two-33-died-six-days-banging-head-shower-fall-caused-slow-bleeding-brain.html

A not very scientific trawl on obvious search terms is headed up by a Top 10 Home Accidents slideshow in the Express which has slips on wet bathroom floors prominently featured...

What with those two you'd be forgiven for wondering if you'd missed the Great Scandal of Bathroom Safety, with reactionary elements of the press leading the way to Save Us All!

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...

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Cunobelin
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Re: Police advice to wear cycle helmets

Postby Cunobelin » 9 Oct 2017, 5:44pm

AlaninWales wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
Mick F wrote:.......................so we should all wear helmets .......... permanently?



The logical and irrevocable progression of the pro-helmet argument

Well, at least softlips follows the evidence to its conclusion:
softlips wrote:I always wear one,...

I wonder if (s)he takes it off to shower (what are the statistics for head injuries in showers?). :lol:


You did ask....

It is difficult to estimate as the figure are skewed. There are hot water injuries, electrocutions and other causes of death and injury.

Head injuries are fairly common and result in deaths as well. This is a Googled quote

What are the most common shower-related injuries?

Shower-related injuries (which could also happen when using the bath) can vary from minor injuries to more serious ones and can include:

Broken bones
Cuts and bruises
Strains and sprains
Neck and spinal injuries
Head injuries
Burns and scalds
Facial injuries
Dislocations
One of the most common moments for a slip and fall to happen is when you are getting into or out of the bath, or wandering around on a slippery floor with wet feet. Overspill from the bath could also make the floor wet, causing hazardous conditions. According to statistics from the US, falls account for 81% of shower-related injuries, and older adults are particularly at risk. As we age, our bones become more brittle, so a fall could lead to more serious injuries amongst the elderly, such as a hip or ankle fracture.

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Mick F
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Re: Police advice to wear cycle helmets

Postby Mick F » 9 Oct 2017, 6:40pm

I mentioned this on another thread I think.

We live in a bungalow BTW.
I stood up from my chair, walked into the bathroom, and the next thing I knew, Mrs Mick F was leaning over me and trying to revive me. I had passed out, and blood was pouring out of the back of my head.

Had I been wearing a cycling helmet, would I have hit my head?
Would I have been bleeding?

i will never know, and I will never know why I passed out.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Cunobelin
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Re: Police advice to wear cycle helmets

Postby Cunobelin » 9 Oct 2017, 7:03pm

Pubs are dangerous as well.

Especially during good weather!

Sit in the beer garden with your bike, then as you go in to order another round.

As your eyes try and compensate for the darkness inside.........

Image

Always wear your helmet in the pub

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Wanlock Dod
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Re: Police advice to wear cycle helmets

Postby Wanlock Dod » 9 Oct 2017, 7:37pm

A letter published in the BMJ in 2000:
Thornhill et al in their paper on disability in young people and adults after head injury show again the extent to which alcohol misuse contributes to head injury. BMJ 2000;321:1021

Pub helmets should be compulsory by law and rigorously enforced

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Re: Police advice to wear cycle helmets

Postby bovlomov » 9 Oct 2017, 8:04pm

Wanlock Dod wrote:A letter published in the BMJ in 2000:
Thornhill et al in their paper on disability in young people and adults after head injury show again the extent to which alcohol misuse contributes to head injury. BMJ 2000;321:1021

Pub helmets should be compulsory by law and rigorously enforced

Plastic beakers (to drink from, not to wear) would reduce pub injuries, and should be mandatory.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Police advice to wear cycle helmets

Postby Cunobelin » 9 Oct 2017, 8:50pm

Wanlock Dod wrote:A letter published in the BMJ in 2000:
Thornhill et al in their paper on disability in young people and adults after head injury show again the extent to which alcohol misuse contributes to head injury. BMJ 2000;321:1021

Pub helmets should be compulsory by law and rigorously enforced



The original paper a brilliant paper as it is one of the few that actually reflects the reality of head injury frequency by reporting the actual causes

... and (quelle surpris) cycling is not even mentioned as a factor.

Again asks why there is the almost fanatical wish to ignore the significant majority of head injuries