School trying to make helmets compulsory

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
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The utility cyclist
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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby The utility cyclist » 6 Dec 2017, 11:02pm

Operation Pedro was in force yesterday in Australia http://getsydney.com.au/2017/12/06/focu ... ion-pedro/
This quote by the assistant gimp at the traffic and highways patrol "“We make no apologies for enforcing the rules as a deterrent for those who choose to put their own lives and the lives of others at risk,” says you have no freedom to choose if you're a person on a bike and I have no idea what I am talking about and don't give a flying one about the safety of the vulnerable but will ensure you will be penalised/criminalised despite not breaching the peace and not endangering others.

And he obviously truly believes this bull product - “We use operations like this to remind everyone to take personal responsibility for their actions in order to reduce the number of deaths on our roads." after saying “Tragically, we have already seen 355 people die on our roads in 2017, including seven cyclists, and 52 pedestrians." This is the level of cretinous, victim blaming, blind, human-rights breaking, bull product that the cretins in charge of schools pushing for helmet compulsion and others like them would love to see our country adopt :twisted:
Frankly, I hope that they realise the error of pushing such propaganda. If it saves thousands more in the long run because they wake up to how damaging helmet promotion is, it would be worth it!

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Cunobelin
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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby Cunobelin » 7 Dec 2017, 6:06am

This is an interesting Ione from Oz

IN 46 years of bike riding, Sue Abbott has never worn a helmet. So when the highway patrol pulled her over in country Scone and fined her for a no-helmet offence, she decided to fight.

The 50-year old mother of four has never been in trouble with the law, has never fallen from her bike, and thought it ridiculous she could not ride at 15km/h on a dedicated cycleway with an uncovered head.

A police video of the incident last year records the sergeant surmising ''it's a hair thing'', a view shared by many people when they first meet her.

But Ms Abbott says it's nothing to do with her exuberant hair. Her objections are based on her belief that wearing a helmet increases the risk of brain damage - and that forcing her to wear one is a breach of her civil liberties.

When she tried that argument in the Scone local court, the magistrate would have none of it. He fined her $50 plus costs.

But when she appealed and laid out her view in the District Court in March, she went a long way to persuading the judge that, 19 years after the laws came into force, there is still no clear evidence of their benefit.

Ms Abbott argued that if she fell from her bike while wearing a helmet she would be at greater risk of brain damage from ''diffuse axonal injury'' (see box), an injury similar to shaken baby syndrome, than if she fell on her bare head.

It may seem ridiculous to suggest helmets could do anything other than improve one's chances in an accident and reduce the number of brain injuries, but there is a serious debate under way on the subject in international medical and transport safety journals - and Judge Roy Ellis happily admitted his own doubts about the laws.

Phil Fouracre
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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby Phil Fouracre » 7 Dec 2017, 5:00pm

Sadly depressing! The most amazing story from Oz I heard was of the police patrol car that ran over a cyclist, to stop them 'getting away, as they weren't wearing a helmet'! So surreal, you couldn't make it up :-(
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drossall
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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby drossall » 7 Dec 2017, 7:12pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:In my recent accident on a fall on black ice which was in a straight line on a cycle path over a flat bridge floored with wood but covered with a gritted surface but no drainage to minimise ice forming after water collection :?

You've reminded me of an accident that I had - black ice that I simply didn't see until my head hit the floor. I remember feeling quite stunned and taking some moments to recover. Do you really think that's enough reason to wear a helmet routinely in similar situations?

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Cunobelin
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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby Cunobelin » 7 Dec 2017, 7:58pm

drossall wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:In my recent accident on a fall on black ice which was in a straight line on a cycle path over a flat bridge floored with wood but covered with a gritted surface but no drainage to minimise ice forming after water collection :?

You've reminded me of an accident that I had - black ice that I simply didn't see until my head hit the floor. I remember feeling quite stunned and taking some moments to recover. Do you really think that's enough reason to wear a helmet routinely in similar situations?



Actually it is a superb argument for compulsory Recumbent Trikes!!!!!!!

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 7 Dec 2017, 8:01pm

Hi,
drossall wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:In my recent accident on a fall on black ice which was in a straight line on a cycle path over a flat bridge floored with wood but covered with a gritted surface but no drainage to minimise ice forming after water collection :?

You've reminded me of an accident that I had - black ice that I simply didn't see until my head hit the floor. I remember feeling quite stunned and taking some moments to recover. Do you really think that's enough reason to wear a helmet routinely in similar situations?


Not sure what you are asking?
But I will be wearing a helmet as usual as that's my choice, I never go out without one and that's because its easier to wear all the time than to make a decision when or where to don one.
Were you wearing a helmet?
As I explained in my post -
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=118729&start=30#p1187336

"I am 59 so I do notice that I am very minutely slower to react.
I fell / slipped on ice, ice unlike a slippery surface has zilch friction with tyres and that narrow (unless you have something special)?
The time to fall would be very quick indeed, so from upright to landing would be very close to freefalling that short distance?
In other words how long does it take for a marble to drop 4 - 5 feet as my head hit last after my body as I do recall.
https://www.angio.net/personal/climb/speed
So about 20 K/hour when I hit floor? Maybe a bit less."

Maybe a bit less for my main body to hit floor, then my head hits with a whipping action.
I have never known it all to happen so Quick.

So I am -
Old, 59
Heavy, 78
Slow, sporting facial hair so very :mrgreen:

Try this, they reckon I am 33 - 34 or 36 :)
https://www.justpark.com/creative/reaction-time-test/
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Cunobelin
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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby Cunobelin » 7 Dec 2017, 8:06pm


drossall
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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby drossall » 7 Dec 2017, 10:11pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Not sure what you are asking?
But I will be wearing a helmet as usual as that's my choice, I never go out without one and that's because its easier to wear all the time than to make a decision when or where to don one.
Were you wearing a helmet?

No. I don't normally wear a helmet when I'm walking into town. In view of my experience, and your advice never to go out without one, do you think that I should?

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 7 Dec 2017, 11:20pm

Hi,
drossall wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Not sure what you are asking?
But I will be wearing a helmet as usual as that's my choice, I never go out without one and that's because its easier to wear all the time than to make a decision when or where to don one.
Were you wearing a helmet?

No. I don't normally wear a helmet when I'm walking into town. In view of my experience, and your advice never to go out without one, do you think that I should?

Sorry...........your walking...................... :?
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drossall
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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby drossall » 7 Dec 2017, 11:59pm

Why would the mode of transport affect anything? This is about dealing with the risks, surely? Either a measure, such as wearing a helmet, is a sensible response to a risk of falling, or it's not.

Or would it be better, when walking on (possible) ice, to wear those spike fitments on my shoes instead? And if so, then surely I should prefer spiked tyres to a bike helmet?

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 8 Dec 2017, 8:35am

Hi,
drossall wrote:Why would the mode of transport affect anything? This is about dealing with the risks, surely? Either a measure, such as wearing a helmet, is a sensible response to a risk of falling, or it's not.

Or would it be better, when walking on (possible) ice, to wear those spike fitments on my shoes instead? And if so, then surely I should prefer spiked tyres to a bike helmet?


Yep, I have those foot spikes.

Not for one moment did I think that I would fall foul of badly designed cycle paths.
Local cycling guru said he would mention the part of path I have highlighted to authorities but I won't hold my breath that it will be changed for the good.
He also said that he stays off cyclepaths when its icy.
No Ice was reported that morn in my area, but a badly designed bridge was a good trap for worst possible condition.

Spiked tyres if they were affordable and on hand (I am guessing that they are premium and wear out quick?).

My mother died after a fall and long stay in care (broken hip) this is I think biggest killer / admission's of elderly to ED?
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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby Vorpal » 8 Dec 2017, 11:26am

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Not for one moment did I think that I would fall foul of badly designed cycle paths.
Why do you wear a helmet, if you don't expect to fall?


NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Local cycling guru said he would mention the part of path I have highlighted to authorities but I won't hold my breath that it will be changed for the good.
He also said that he stays off cyclepaths when its icy.
No Ice was reported that morn in my area, but a badly designed bridge was a good trap for worst possible condition.

Spiked tyres if they were affordable and on hand (I am guessing that they are premium and wear out quick?).

Cyclepaths are less likely to be treated, so if there's been a frost or ice, the roads might be safer.

As for studded tyres, you can buy Marathon winter tyres (fewer studs than the Ice Spikes) for under £30 for a pair on eBay. My first set lasted 3 winters before I began losing studs.

There are also non-studded winter tyres. They are more expensive, but they ride better, and last longer. They're likely a better choice if you encounter occasional ice, but don't ride in it often.
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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby RickH » 8 Dec 2017, 11:48am

Vorpal wrote:As for studded tyres, you can buy Marathon winter tyres (fewer studs than the Ice Spikes) for under £30 for a pair on eBay. My first set lasted 3 winters before I began losing studs.

I lost a few studs from mine over a couple of years but got a replacement kit - 50 spare studs & a screwdriver-like tool to push them in - for less than 10 Euros from Bike24 in Germany (link - I got it when ordering other stuff so spread the 5.95 Euro postage cost).

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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby Vorpal » 8 Dec 2017, 12:06pm

RickH wrote:
Vorpal wrote:As for studded tyres, you can buy Marathon winter tyres (fewer studs than the Ice Spikes) for under £30 for a pair on eBay. My first set lasted 3 winters before I began losing studs.

I lost a few studs from mine over a couple of years but got a replacement kit - 50 spare studs & a screwdriver-like tool to push them in - for less than 10 Euros from Bike24 in Germany (link - I got it when ordering other stuff so spread the 5.95 Euro postage cost).

On mine, it was clear that I was losing them because the rubber was deteriorating. Replacing the studs would have been a losing battle.
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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby Ruadh495 » 8 Dec 2017, 12:41pm

I have Schwalbe "Snow Studs" which are even cheaper (the trick is to buy them in May...) Currently on their second winter so getting on for 2000 miles on them. I lost a few studs early on (I've got the tool too) but none recently. You do need clearances for 622 X 40 though.

They are draggy (but no worse than a set of Sensamo "Speed"), noisy (good for alerting sleepy peds) and generally horrid. Most of the time they aren't needed, but if you do encounter ice they become invaluable and you never know where you might find black ice... Does that sound like another piece of kit?

There's really no way to know how many falls studded tyres prevent, since you don't even notice the ice. The only way you can tell is when you get off and promptly fall over...

I'm not sure about the advice to avoid cycle paths in icy weather. I can see why it's given, carriageways are usually clear (and gritted), but if cars are losing grip you really don't want to be around them. So use facilities where available but carry your own grit in the form of studded tyres. You are also likely to be going slower in icy weather, which can make shared use paths more acceptable. Crashing off a cycleway is better than ending up under a car (Natural Ankling might not agree at the moment).

Personally I'd put tyre studs above helmets as a precaution (engineering measures should always be considered before PPE), but you can always do both. I don't, I find a helmet encourages close passing and prevents the use of more useful headwear, but that's me.