School trying to make helmets compulsory

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
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Graham
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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby Graham » 15 Dec 2017, 5:15pm

To be fair Headway are an organisation deeply involved in dealing with the consequences of Head Injuries.

Their involvement in care for the victims of such is really beyond criticism.

From their point of view - the very sharp end - EVERY head injury avoided is worth the effort to avoid.

However, for them, Compulsory plastic hat wearing for cyclists is a relatively soft target because it would please very many other groups who have their own reasons to see such a result.
Sadly this includes a fair proportion of cyclists themselves !

Promoting protective headgear to those groups / activities that see much greater numbers of head injuries is easily dismissed as "Don't be silly." It would encounter huge resistance.

This myopia is a cultural phenomenon.

EDIT - Re. Headway - But grossly distorting statistics aka lying, in publicity, to promote the cause is inexcusable.
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=39927
Last edited by Graham on 15 Dec 2017, 8:50pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added a Link back to previous forum topic on Headway

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 15 Dec 2017, 5:19pm

Hi,
mjr wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:I have always said that I wear a helmet for other than safety reasons, if it helps safety wise then there's a bonus for me.

Your other reasons can be fulfilled otherwise and what it if harms safety wise?

Then there's the damage it does to public health by reducing cycling, but I've long given up much hope of helmet users accepting that.

Like I said I wear a helmet, you don't have to, who's is forcing you?
Maybe I misunderstood what you are saying.
I.M.O. wearing a helmet does not harm health, that is all made up.

I really need to go back and count the number of posters in this discussion who do wear helmets and see if there are any more like me, or if its all one sided?

Like I said up post "My Opinion"

I get the drift of this subject- wearing a helmet is more dangerous than not wearing one whilst on a bicycle.
Or is it really civil rights?

Many years ago there were anti motorcycle rally's, my mate always wore a helmet...........but not that day..............he wan fined..........and since then he has never not worn one on his motorcycle.

He has never expressed an opinion to wear one or not?
Some people are like that.
I am not.
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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby thirdcrank » 15 Dec 2017, 5:27pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote: ... Like I said I wear a helmet, you don't have to, who's is forcing you?
Maybe I misunderstood what you are saying. ....


One argument is that by wearing a helmet you are normalising helmet wearing, which makes it harder for people to excercise their right not to wear one. Ditto hi-viz.

I wear both, but that doesn't stop me seeing that argument.

(Edit to insert "their right" which I had missed out)
Last edited by thirdcrank on 15 Dec 2017, 6:22pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 15 Dec 2017, 5:39pm

Hi
Yes there is that fitting in with the crowd, fortunately I have never been one to fit in just to blend in, and thus at times you can be a target for unwarranted attention.

I would have to say that on my travels not many where I live don't wear a helmet.
In my street I am the only one who hand washes my car and does repairs also.

A funny thing the other day, white van man with two occupants turning outside my house both wore hi-vis but neither were wearing a seatbelt, if nothing else they are risking a fine, perhaps their firm will pay, they looked more bailiffs type.
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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby Steady rider » 15 Dec 2017, 5:58pm

Consider;

http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1250.html

Conclusion
When changes in cycle use are taken into account, Alberta’s helmet law seems to have increased the risk of both head and non-head injuries.

Robinson 1996 reported data for children. In Victoria the equivalent number of injuries for pre law level of number of cyclists increased by 15% from 1990 to 1992. For NSW the equivalent injury rate for children increased by 59%, from 1310 to 2083. The proportion of head injuries decreased from 29.3% to 23.4%.

Robinson DL; Head injuries and bicycle helmet laws; Accid Anal Prev, 28, 4: p 463-475, 1996
http://www.cycle-helmets.com/robinson-head-injuries.pdf

Erke and Elvik 2007 stated:
"There is evidence of increased accident risk per cycling-km for cyclists wearing a helmet. In Australia and New Zealand, the increase is estimated to be around 14 per cent."

Helmet wearing results in more impacts (7 times higher than for non-wearers ) and a higher accident rate.
see Robinson paper p464/2nd page.

New Zealand general survey data from before their law 1989-1990 to after 2006-09 showed that average hours cycled per person reduced by 51%.

For Australia, Melbourne, The law resulted in a drop of 48% in teenagers cycling with 30 more wearing helmets compared with 623 fewer cycling.

Helmet laws do not deliver a net societal health benefit with a ratio 109 to 1 against.
see, Evaluation of Australia's bicycle helmet laws, The Sports Science Summit, O2 venue London UK 2015 http://www.cycle-helmets.com/au-assessment-2015.pdf

Helmets do not deliver the benefits people expect and helmet laws actually result in more harm than good.

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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby Vorpal » 15 Dec 2017, 10:37pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Like I said I wear a helmet, you don't have to, who's is forcing you?
Maybe I misunderstood what you are saying.
I.M.O. wearing a helmet does not harm health, that is all made up.

I really need to go back and count the number of posters in this discussion who do wear helmets and see if there are any more like me, or if its all one sided?

Like I said up post "My Opinion"

I get the drift of this subject- wearing a helmet is more dangerous than not wearing one whilst on a bicycle.
Or is it really civil rights?

The subject of this thread is 'school trying to make helmets compulsory'. You are welcome to your opinion about helmets. But, to me, there is a problem if anyone is going to tell people they *must* wear helmets, and schools are in a precarious position when it comes to authority on the topic. Personally, I object strongly to schools doing this sort of things *especially* when the same schools abjectly fail to deal with anti-social parking and the frenzied 'rush to school' driving that happens around the gates, which is the primary source of risk for their pupils cycling to school.

I don't even want the school to promote helmets because there is evidence that promoting helmets actually puts people off cycling.
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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby 661-Pete » 16 Dec 2017, 9:45am

Graham wrote:To be fair Headway are an organisation deeply involved in dealing with the consequences of Head Injuries.
Agreed. Headway is about a lot more than helmet enforcement. Perhaps I was thinking more of the BHIT organisation (now rebranded as 'Cycle-Smart') which does present itself as a single-issue pressure group.

In the case of the unfortunate girl featured in the BBC story, however, it is not at all clear how 'a helmet saved her life', seeing as her main injuries were to the pelvis. I have suffered face-plants several times - sometimes resulting in broken teeth and a broken nose, nothing more serious. No helmet would have prevented these, except the full-face type worn by motorcyclists and some BMX riders. I agree that some people have come off much worse from that sort of impact (in one instance I would certainly have been much more badly injured if my head had struck the kerbstone only inches away). But the human skull is a pretty tough object.

It was the car running over the girl that caused the serious injuries, and a helmet would not have protected her from that.
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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby atoz » 16 Dec 2017, 10:01am

661-Pete wrote:
Graham wrote:To be fair Headway are an organisation deeply involved in dealing with the consequences of Head Injuries.
Agreed. Headway is about a lot more than helmet enforcement. Perhaps I was thinking more of the BHIT organisation (now rebranded as 'Cycle-Smart') which does present itself as a single-issue pressure group.

In the case of the unfortunate girl featured in the BBC story, however, it is not at all clear how 'a helmet saved her life', seeing as her main injuries were to the pelvis. I have suffered face-plants several times - sometimes resulting in broken teeth and a broken nose, nothing more serious. No helmet would have prevented these, except the full-face type worn by motorcyclists and some BMX riders. I agree that some people have come off much worse from that sort of impact (in one instance I would certainly have been much more badly injured if my head had struck the kerbstone only inches away). But the human skull is a pretty tough object.

It was the car running over the girl that caused the serious injuries, and a helmet would not have protected her from that.


Trouble is, people believe what they want to believe. Maybe if they were aware that it's the absorbent pads in the helmet that help to protect you, rather than the shell itself, they'd realise thir limitations- but there again, maybe not. Even experienced cyclists fall for the "saved my life" type quotes. I've even had this sort of argument on club runs- quite depressing, but when you consider that to counter some of the propaganda it helps to have some experience in assessing evidence based medical literature it's understandable. Headway on their site quote the infamous (now discredited) Thompson and Rivara study, but neglect to tell people of the it's poor evidence base. This from a medical charity.

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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby pjclinch » 16 Dec 2017, 10:38am

Vorpal wrote:
I don't even want the school to promote helmets because there is evidence that promoting helmets actually puts people off cycling.


Absolutely.

And this is not surprising is you take a step back and look at the messages. The more strongly we say, "you should wear this stuff to ride a bike", the more strongly we are saying, "if you'd rather not wear this stuff, you shouldn't be riding a bike". I would suggest to anyone who doesn't see a problem there that they've forgotten what it's like to be a teenager or pre-teen, or don't know many of the current crop.

Not for nothing did the Goodwin Report quite specifically single out the importance of promoting cycling as safe and normal to prospective riders of all ages.

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Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...

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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby Steady rider » 16 Dec 2017, 11:03am

Whately S, Bicycle Crashes in the Austrian Capital Territories, CR 35, FORS, 1985, Table 25
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/ ... rash_1.pdf

a 1985 report,
Table 11 relates to why people cycle, 77% for fun.

Promoting helmets focuses on accidents, risks, injuries and enforcement, taking away the focus of enjoyment, fun, freedom etc. Promoting safe cycling to children is good, safe cycling habits, without excessive emphasis on injuries. Promoting and requiring helmets leads to a main focus on enforcement, not fun any more.

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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby Rusty Rider » 24 Jan 2018, 6:02pm

Pre 1973 I used to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, today I don't wear a helmet on a bicycle. I can't see how it'll protect whats encased in your cranium if you smack it into the road, or any solid object.
Peter

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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 24 Jan 2018, 8:11pm

Hi,
Concussion maybe.

Sorry is that M/cycles ?
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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby Cyril Haearn » 24 Jan 2018, 9:41pm

Parliament makes laws, right?

What authority do school managers/teachers or employers have to make laws (no authority?) or rules on their premises?

I understand that for example a cinema management may not allow guests to bring their own food, what is the legal basis for this?
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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby drossall » 24 Jan 2018, 10:36pm

It's their building? Broadly, owning the property gives you significant rights to say what can be done there, which is good news for anyone who doesn't fancy random passing cyclists camping on the front lawn without permission.

The question here was about trying to extent that to the journey to school, which is of course on the public road/pavement/whatever.

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Re: School trying to make helmets compulsory

Postby horizon » 24 Jan 2018, 11:44pm

drossall wrote:
The question here was about trying to extend that to the journey to school, which is of course on the public road/pavement/whatever.


I'm not sure that really was the issue - the school might have tried to do various somewhat ultra vires things and it wouldn't bother us. It's still the helmet issue. And for a school it's even more poignant as they need to show that they have done everything they should have done (and if that means helmets it means helmets). You might get somewhere by challenging the school on that basis but the psychological and emotional foundation of helmet use remains untouched.
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