Helmets for cricketers, footballers, motorists, not cyclists

For all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmet usage will be moved here.
fastpedaller
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Re: Helmets for cricketers instead of cyclists

Post by fastpedaller »

Jdsk wrote:Screenshot 2020-11-01 at 17.03.28.png
https://twitter.com/marthakelner/status/1322899286376534022

It can be difficult or impossible to determine the cause in an individual. But public attention and campaigns often hinge on them.

Jonathan

Indeed - the 'cause' could be the daily milk kids were given at school during that era, the 'after match' celebrations or the half-time oranges laced with pesticides. Just because a certain group have a slightly higher incidence of a condition doesn't mean there is a connection, or indeed the connection can be linked to a certain action. If someone said he knew several people in their Nineties who all smoked Woodbines, that surely doesn't suggest it's a good thing, any more than saying "I've known many tea total people who've died in their 50's - they'd have lived longer if they'd been drinkers, and even longer if they'd been heavy drinkers" :lol:
A friend of mine believes exercise is likely to cause arthritis, so avoids exercise in case he gets the condition in later life :shock: . I prefer to enjoy my cycling/exercise, and if I get arthritic so be it :roll: .
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The utility cyclist
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Re: Helmets for cricketers instead of cyclists

Post by The utility cyclist »

Cyril Haearn wrote:Thread resurrection alert

The Grauniad reports that several famous footballers have apparently suffered brain injury from heading balls
I think the thing is, they do so much training and practicing, thousands of impacts
Can anything be done? There is so much money in football. Would helmuts look silly?

As for cricket, I should not want to play that even with a helmut

I shall stick to cycling, aiming to make a million as the Laterne Rouge in the TdF

Why, because you've never played, you've watched it on TV and thought that's dangerous? what do you think the risks are say compared to falling down stair or getting out the shower, walking, driving or even cycling?
Do you think moderating how those presenting the harm (bowlers) act/play would have a greater or lesser impact on safety compared to what the person on the receiving end might be able to do, given that we know even with helmets/protection these people still get killed and seriously injured and there's no evidence to support since the mandation that safety has improved?

I was struck under the jaw by a ball off the bat of my own team mate in a limited overs game, over eager in backing up on the last delivery, turned my head away and it shattered my wisdom tooth, that was the only injury I got playing (al without a helmet) and some of the pitches were dodgy as hell with some pretty quick bowlers. A helmet would have made it less easier to move my head away. I was able to bowl after spitting out bits of tooth and swilling my mouth of blood. Not wearing a helmet makes a bowler think more about safety, without it there is less regard for safety, I would as a medium quick think differently and the few that wore them when I first played (17/18 years old) I intimidated them more because of it and had less thought for their safety/ Similar when I played rugby league and dabbled with american football.
Last edited by The utility cyclist on 9 Nov 2020, 12:55am, edited 1 time in total.
tim-b
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Re: Helmets for cricketers instead of cyclists

Post by tim-b »

Hi
Interesting interview on R4 with (I believe) the widow of Jeff Astle this morning. Whilst lighter, modern balls also travel much faster, so the amount of energy they impart to the head is similar, if not greater to the old 'caseys' as we used to call them.

A dry modern football weighs the same as any dry regulation football since 1937, but in the UK we're subject to the weather :(
I don't know if a modern ball is faster, or if the top players can boot it harder, but at the beginning of the match they should all weight the same
Regards
tim-b
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~
Bonefishblues
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Re: Helmets for cricketers instead of cyclists

Post by Bonefishblues »

tim-b wrote:Hi
Interesting interview on R4 with (I believe) the widow of Jeff Astle this morning. Whilst lighter, modern balls also travel much faster, so the amount of energy they impart to the head is similar, if not greater to the old 'caseys' as we used to call them.

A dry modern football weighs the same as any dry regulation football since 1937, but in the UK we're subject to the weather :(
I don't know if a modern ball is faster, or if the top players can boot it harder, but at the beginning of the match they should all weight the same
Regards
tim-b

I think that's been key to its development - that is, players get more bang-per-boot in terms of speed off the foot via better energy return, and the ball is much more consistent. It also is designed to be more mobile, if spin is imparted.
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Cunobelin
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Post by Cunobelin »

Football is not a good analogy.

Helmets are PPE and hence a last resort.

With football the answer is simple... stop heading the ball, remove the activity that causes the injury.
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Post by Cyril Haearn »

@utility
Cricket is a source of entertainment, maths, metaphors, no need for me to play it, I was not fast enough even when young
I think there is a lot to be said *against* competitive/elite sport, people do almost anything to win and may pay for it later: bad health, lower life expectancy

I live on the ground floor, just a couple of shallow steps, not so dangerous
Gave up driving, maybe permanently :wink:
Cycling I love of course, mostly I ride 49" fixed, limits me to 25 kmh
..
Could heading be banned in football? Maybe using hands could be allowed instead
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon, PoB, 30120
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we hate bullies
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Cyril Haearn wrote:Could heading be banned in football? Maybe using hands could be allowed instead


Excellent idea - but let's limit it so you can only throw the ball backwards. Then we could make it a better shape to hold onto.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
50sbiker
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Re: Helmets for cricketers instead of cyclists

Post by 50sbiker »

Pastychomper wrote:
50sbiker wrote:For anyone unsure about helmet wearing...Stott your head off a wall a few times,with and without a helmet....Then come on and convince me it makes no difference...(with pictures of the impact)

I'll let someone else try the experiment, but I predict that it will make a difference. I imagine the presence of a helmet would make head-stotting much more comfortable, with a corresponding increase in the practice among helmet wearers.

Great minds think alike!......Just incase...tiz a joke!..cannot be too careful in the ultra pc days we inhabit
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Tigerbiten
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Re: Helmets for cricketers instead of cyclists

Post by Tigerbiten »

50sbiker wrote:For anyone unsure about helmet wearing...Stott your head off a wall a few times,with and without a helmet....Then come on and convince me it makes no difference...(with pictures of the impact)

Without a helmet it will hurt.
So you'll stop doing it and try and avoid doing it again.
With a helmet on then it won't hurt.
So you won't be to worried about doing it again.
But every time you bash your head, you risk doing some very slight brain damage.
In the long run ......
Without a helmet on you may get a slight scar but chicks dig scars ..... :lol:
With a helmet on you may suffer from dementia in 10-20 years time due to the brain damage.
So do you suffer damage now or later ???

Luck ........... :D
Jdsk
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Re: Helmets for cricketers instead of cyclists

Post by Jdsk »

50sbiker wrote:For anyone unsure about helmet wearing...Stott your head off a wall a few times,with and without a helmet....Then come on and convince me it makes no difference...(with pictures of the impact)

Tigerbiten wrote:With a helmet on then it won't hurt.
So you won't be to worried about doing it again.

50sbiker is describing an experiment to be performed "a few times". Why would anyone continue doing it after the effects were demonstrated?

Risk compensation theory is very interesting, and IMHO risk compensating behaviour should be looked for in relevant situations. But this must be the most extreme version of the belief that it always happens that I have ever seen.

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Post by Jdsk »

[XAP]Bob wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:Could heading be banned in football? Maybe using hands could be allowed instead

Excellent idea - but let's limit it so you can only throw the ball backwards. Then we could make it a better shape to hold onto.

Very good, and the resulting game would be better with fewer than 15 a side...

Jonathan
Mike Sales
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Post by Mike Sales »

Risk homeostasis is about the balancing of risk and reward.
If there were a reward for hardest head banging it is easy to imagine that the helmet wearers would bang harder.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Jdsk
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Post by Jdsk »

Yes, that's much more realistic. And would have to be controlled for in the experiment... depending on what it was intended to study...

Jonathan
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pjclinch
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Re: Helmets for cricketers instead of cyclists

Post by pjclinch »

50sbiker wrote:For anyone unsure about helmet wearing...Stott your head off a wall a few times,with and without a helmet....Then come on and convince me it makes no difference...(with pictures of the impact)


The risk compensation thing has already been pointed out.

Next issue with the above is that it conflates the question "am I better off wearing this thing if I hit part of my head it protects?" with "am I usefully less likely to end up suffering in a head-striking crash at the end of this bicycle journey?", but they're not the same. If they were, then let's repeat the experiment in a motoring context (the country's biggest source of traumatic brain injury)...

Stott your head off a car's door pillar a few times, with and without a helmet....Then come on and convince me it makes no difference...(with pictures of the impact)

If the first one was of itself a good enough reason to wear a helmet on a bike, then the second is in itself a good enough reason to wear a helmet in a car. But making a difference in the event of a crash isn't all there is to it (or why not fit your car with a roll-cage?)

Next, let's look at the next biggest cause of serious head injury in the UK, trips and falls. Here's the experiment...

Stott your head off a pavement a few times, with and without a helmet....Then come on and convince me it makes no difference...(with pictures of the impact)

If the first one was of itself a good enough reason to wear a helmet on a bike, then the third is in itself a good enough reason to wear a helmet on foot .But making a difference in the event of a crash isn't all there is to it (or why not always wear gloves and wrist guards to walk to help break a fall?)

But we don't drive or walk in helmets because, despite the injuries that undoubtedly occur, we know it's safe enough not to bother because to a first approximation trips on foot and in motors don't involve crashes. They don't on a bike either. The main difference is the culture around the modes, rather than the actual risk. With so many people on at us the whole time about how dangerous cycling is and how important helmets are our culture has ended up pushing helmets for cycling, people do what others do around them and that propagates the perceived importance, and makes many people psychologically uncomfortable flying in the face of "what everyone knows". People tend to do what they feel happiest with, and will often rationalise that gut-feeling in to "reasoning" like the above that turns out not to have much consistency.

In short, helmets are considered important because everyone goes on about them.
Everyone goes on about helmets because they're considered important.

It's a loop, evidence has largely been superseded by ritual.

That's not to say you shouldn't wear one if you want to wear one. However, for most of the people most of the time in contexts where they don't expect to regularly engage in "unplanned dismounts" the state of the evidence is very much "not proven", and it's probably better to say "I prefer wearing this to not" than cherry picking evidence or dubious thought experiments to justify it. That way it's your decision and doesn't imply anything about anyone else's.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
50sbiker
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Re: Helmets for cricketers instead of cyclists

Post by 50sbiker »

Tigerbiten wrote:
50sbiker wrote:For anyone unsure about helmet wearing...Stott your head off a wall a few times,with and without a helmet....Then come on and convince me it makes no difference...(with pictures of the impact)

Without a helmet it will hurt.
So you'll stop doing it and try and avoid doing it again.
With a helmet on then it won't hurt.
So you won't be to worried about doing it again.
But every time you bash your head, you risk doing some very slight brain damage.
In the long run ......
Without a helmet on you may get a slight scar but chicks dig scars ..... :lol:
With a helmet on you may suffer from dementia in 10-20 years time due to the brain damage.
So do you suffer damage now or later ???

Luck ........... :D

With or without helmet,I will not be banging my head off a wall!..Or be less careful because I wear a helmet...If i fall and hit the curb I am probably dead either way..It might just save my life...Wearing a seat belt in a car does not make me drive any less safe in the manner in which I drive.."chicks dig scars"".thank you for the humour..I am 57 tho!..Chicks most certainly do not "dig"brain damage.If one is involved in a collision resulting in later brain damage,you willbe dead without a helmet.So...Do you die instantly or take a slight risk of dementia having lived perfectly happy for an extra 10 years?!
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