Helmets for cricketers, footballers, motorists, not cyclists

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roubaixtuesday
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Thank you @pjclinch.

I have nothing to add.
mikeymo
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Post by mikeymo »

roubaixtuesday wrote:Thank you @pjclinch.

I have nothing to add.


Not even any evidence to support your assertion, it seems.
Jdsk
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Post by Jdsk »

And now rugby:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/08/steve-thompson-former-rugby-union-players-dementia-landmark-legal-case

"Steve Thompson, who won the Rugby World Cup with England in 2003, has been diagnosed with early onset dementia and is joining a group of former players in a potentially landmark legal action for the sport."

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, not cyclists

Post by Jdsk »

Could heading be banned in football? Maybe using hands could be allowed instead

Some thoughts from Adrian Chiles: "Football without headers is unthinkable – or is it?":
https://www.theguardian.com/football/co ... e-or-is-it

Jonathan
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pjclinch
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, motorists, not cyclists

Post by pjclinch »

That one can't use hands or arms is a deliberate contrivance, forcing players to invent skills to work with what they're allowed. It's hardly the only sport to place such artificial restrictions. Adding heads to the list of bits you can't use is just another deliberate restriction that players would have to find ways around, but find them they surely would and you'll have football, rather than head-and-football.

Football without heading would be like cycling with only fixed gears! (which turns out to be pretty good sport)

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
Jdsk
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, motorists, not cyclists

Post by Jdsk »

Yes. Those sporting rules are human constructs, and it's right that they should change as knowledge changes.

Jonathan
mattsccm
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, motorists, not cyclists

Post by mattsccm »

"Surely professional exposures to hazards of that nature should be properly assessed and regulated by the HSE".
Page 1
Surely just the opposite. No one but the individual should have any decision what so ever in that individual's safety.
Jdsk
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, motorists, not cyclists

Post by Jdsk »

It's a long thread and professional might have several meanings... do you mean that employers should have no responsibility for the safety of employees?

Thanks

Jonathan
tim-b
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, motorists, not cyclists

Post by tim-b »

Hi
mattsccm wrote:"Surely professional exposures to hazards of that nature should be properly assessed and regulated by the HSE".
Page 1
Surely just the opposite. No one but the individual should have any decision what so ever in that individual's safety.

In any context your decisions on safety mustn't impinge on my safety, whether you manage me or work alongside
In the context of football if I can be better at the game by heading the ball and earn more money than people who choose not to then I might be influencing their choices and desire to further their career. Everyone who wants a good career either heads the ball or becomes a goalkeeper
If FIFA make the right self-regulatory H&S choices, and individuals comply, then the HSE won't need to be involved. Win-win?
Regards
tim-b
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~
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531colin
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, motorists, not cyclists

Post by 531colin »

Nothing new under the sun....I hope this link works :lol: :lol: :lol:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/ownership/the-weird-weird-world-of-forgotten-car-accessories/ss-BB1ciJwh?ocid=msedgntp#image=29

Do we think that all the busybodies who want to influence my decision (not to) wear a cycle helmet will insist on everybody in motor vehicles wears one of these? (more head injuries to occupants of motor vehicles than cyclists in the average year, I believe)
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pjclinch
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, motorists, not cyclists

Post by pjclinch »

531colin wrote:(more head injuries to occupants of motor vehicles than cyclists in the average year, I believe)


Motor crashes are the #1 cause of head trauma in the UK. Trips and falls are second. Cycling hardly gets a look in... but with so many more people getting about by car and foot than by bike a simple count isn't a useful figure. You can look at things by distance travelled, or per journey, or per time interval but you can never entirely compare an apple to the same sort of apple (car journeys tend to be further overall than bike journeys, bike journeys longer than foot, and so on).

However, overall driving is generally safer, not that that invalidates the point that the same "if one life is saved it's worth it!" nonsense should apply equally to motoring... but motorists aren't an outgroup so it doesn't play that way.

More to the point, while I might be safer myself driving rather than riding, I'm causing vastly more danger to everyone else. Their safety should be my problem (because I'm causing the danger), not theirs.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
Jdsk
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, motorists, not cyclists

Post by Jdsk »

pjclinch wrote:Motor crashes are the #1 cause of head trauma in the UK. Trips and falls are second.

Aren't falls the most common cause of traumatic brain injury?

bmjopen2016012197f02.jpg

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/bmjopen/6/11/e012197.full.pdf

Jonathan
mikeymo
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, motorists, not cyclists

Post by mikeymo »

mattsccm wrote:"Surely professional exposures to hazards of that nature should be properly assessed and regulated by the HSE".
Page 1
Surely just the opposite. No one but the individual should have any decision what so ever in that individual's safety.


Just to be clear, are you talking just about cycling helmets and football headers?

Or do you think that "No one but the individual should have any decision what so ever in that individual's safety" in any context?

Do you include children in that? Should they be allowed to make their own decisions about safety? The mentally ill? How about employees who are asked by their employer to work on unguarded machinery? Should that still be up to the "individual" employee to make their own decisions about safety?
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pjclinch
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, motorists, not cyclists

Post by pjclinch »

Jdsk wrote:
pjclinch wrote:Motor crashes are the #1 cause of head trauma in the UK. Trips and falls are second.

Aren't falls the most common cause of traumatic brain injury?

bmjopen2016012197f02.jpg
https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/bmjopen/6/11/e012197.full.pdf


Looks like it could be overall from that, I was quoting from memory (memory suggested there wasn't much in it). First noting that head trauma and TBI aren't quite the same, it's also the case that given the breakdown there looks to make falls at home among the elderly a particular problem and whatever it was I'd read may well have been some sort of sample that wouldn't take that in to account (?)

However, bottom line is that 531colin's thoughts were correct and the overall point of cyclists should wear helmets is a cultural issue more than a statistical one.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
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pjclinch
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Re: Helmets for cricketers, footballers, motorists, not cyclists

Post by pjclinch »

mikeymo wrote:
mattsccm wrote:"Surely professional exposures to hazards of that nature should be properly assessed and regulated by the HSE".
Page 1
Surely just the opposite. No one but the individual should have any decision what so ever in that individual's safety.


Just to be clear, are you talking just about cycling helmets and football headers?

Or do you think that "No one but the individual should have any decision what so ever in that individual's safety" in any context?

Do you include children in that? Should they be allowed to make their own decisions about safety? The mentally ill? How about employees who are asked by their employer to work on unguarded machinery? Should that still be up to the "individual" employee to make their own decisions about safety?


Good questions.

In the cycle training community for training children, helmet use is not down to the individual. Parents/carers make the decision, noting that a school/local authority providing training is in loco parentis and can (and very often does) make that decision. I don't think the idea of parents making safety decisions for their children (including the decision to let them decide for themselves) is controversial.

When you get past children to adults it typically comes down to contract small print. If my small print says I'm uninsured if you don't wear a lid (British Cycling's small print says this, which is why their events require lids) and I need to be insured to give you the training as a business transaction covered by the contract then the decision isn't so much "it's up to me whether I wear a lid" as "it's up to me whether I take the training under these pre-stated contractual conditions".

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
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