Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
pwa
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Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby pwa » 24 Nov 2017, 12:09pm

I just remembered being criticised by a horse rider, about 20 years ago, for wearing highly visible yellow clothing that (she said) bothered her horse. Since then Hi Viz has become common attire for horse riders.

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Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby brynpoeth » 24 Nov 2017, 12:16pm

I saw two horses with riders on the road

Both riders we using the safety equipment described (h + hv)

Both were smombieing

Is a horse a person or a vehicle? Does a horse rider have similar responsibilities to a cyclist or driver?
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pwa
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Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby pwa » 24 Nov 2017, 12:21pm

With most road users (motorists, cyclists, pedestrians) there is only the road user themselves who can be moody. Horse riders have a vehicle that can be moody!

(Apology for being OT)

Stevek76
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Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby Stevek76 » 24 Nov 2017, 12:50pm

This is likely the optimist in me speaking but I think this has been blown out of proportion a little, especially as the times led with incorrect and misleading headline today.

Nothing seems to have changed on this since the previous announcement, the review will consider evidence submitted, Norman has simply answered the times's question by alluding to the inevitability that at least one pro helmet submission is going to happen.

The only image I could find on google in 30 seconds suggests Jesse Norman is not of the armoured traffic cone dressing habit when on a bike: http://renews.biz/105518/norman-handed-energy-brief/

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Cunobelin
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Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby Cunobelin » 24 Nov 2017, 1:06pm

There is indeed a review going on, and was announced in September

The review, which will seek to improve all elements of cycle safety, will be in 2 phases.

The first phase will analyse the case for creating a new offence equivalent to causing death or serious injury by careless or dangerous driving to help protect both cyclists and pedestrians. This will address a specific issue emerging from some of the most distressing cases seen recently and will be informed by independent legal advice. The conclusions from this phase are expected to be reported in the New Year.

The second phase will be a wider consultation on road safety issues relating to cycling. It will involve a range of road safety and cycling organisations, as well as the general public and will consider different ways in which safety can be further improved between cyclists, pedestrians and motorists. It will consider the rules of the road, public awareness, key safety risks and the guidance and signage for all road users.


What is happening now is that the Press are picking non-proven and speculatory subjects which they know will be controversial and hence get them attention

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661-Pete
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Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby 661-Pete » 24 Nov 2017, 1:24pm

brynpoeth wrote:I saw two horses with riders on the road

Both riders we using the safety equipment described (h + hv)

Both were smombieing

Is a horse a person or a vehicle? Does a horse rider have similar responsibilities to a cyclist or driver?

There's a splendid portmanteau word I haven't come across before (first appeared in German, apparently)!

I was going to ask, was it the riders who were engrossed in their smartphones, or the horses? I just hope it was the latter.
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Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby Vorpal » 24 Nov 2017, 2:00pm

The article in The Times https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -rb7c026l0 puts a little different spin on it than road.cc http://road.cc/content/news/232665-mand ... cle-safety
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Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby Vorpal » 24 Nov 2017, 2:01pm

661-Pete wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:I saw two horses with riders on the road

Both riders we using the safety equipment described (h + hv)

Both were smombieing

Is a horse a person or a vehicle? Does a horse rider have similar responsibilities to a cyclist or driver?

There's a splendid portmanteau word I haven't come across before (first appeared in German, apparently)!

I was going to ask, was it the riders who were engrossed in their smartphones, or the horses? I just hope it was the latter.

Smombie is a noun in Norwegian. I haven't come across it used as a verb.
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Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby Psamathe » 24 Nov 2017, 2:49pm

pwa wrote:I just remembered being criticised by a horse rider, about 20 years ago, for wearing highly visible yellow clothing that (she said) bothered her horse. Since then Hi Viz has become common attire for horse riders.

I've had a similar comment from a horse rider, made worse apparently when Hi-Vis waistcoat left open and flapping around. Horse rider was very pleasant about it, no agro or anything just something they mentioned as we briefly chatted as we passed.

Ian

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Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby brynpoeth » 24 Nov 2017, 3:13pm

661-Pete wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:I saw two horses with riders on the road

Both riders we using the safety equipment described (h + hv)

Both were smombieing

Is a horse a person or a vehicle? Does a horse rider have similar responsibilities to a cyclist or driver?

There's a splendid portmanteau word I haven't come across before (first appeared in German, apparently)!

I was going to ask, was it the riders who were engrossed in their smartphones, or the horses? I just hope it was the latter.


It was near Dwygyfylchy actually %-) Could be that the horses were wired too or joining in somehow
I saw a picture once of a very practical vehicle, a wagon with a horse who "walked" on an endless enclosed belt to drive the thing along. Could that be the future? There could even be a two-horse version (2CV). When one has to stop the horse could keep walking and drive a generator (automatic clutch?)

Heard a programme about Jugendsprache, Youthspeak in German
One new word quoted was "Gammelfleischparty", rotten meat party
I did not have the stomach to look it up, fortunately
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Wanlock Dod
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Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby Wanlock Dod » 24 Nov 2017, 3:15pm

Aren't horses the original self driving vehicles?

Psamathe
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Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby Psamathe » 24 Nov 2017, 3:21pm

Vorpal wrote:The article in The Times https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -rb7c026l0 puts a little different spin on it than road.cc http://road.cc/content/news/232665-mand ... cle-safety

Similar (more balanced) report in the Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/nov/24/no-plan-to-make-cycle-helmets-compulsory-in-safety-review-minister wrote:No plan to make cycle helmets compulsory in safety review – minister

Jesse Norman, the minister for roads and local transport, told a conference he would consider making helmets mandatory if groups or individuals made submissions calling for as much to the government’s cycle safety review.

The brain injury association, Headway, said it would submit information to the review in support of enforced wearing of helmets.

However, Norman hit out at a report of his remarks in the Times, headlined “Compulsory helmets plan for all cyclists”, as inaccurate.

However, I do suspect there will be something of a fight about this given the stated intent of Headway (see above quote) but I assume there will be substantial engagement from cycling bodies and individuals (e.g. forum members).

My worry is slightly that whilst the Government frequently states it's policies are evidence based, they then go and do things contrary to evidence to curry favour with certain sectors of the electorate (e.g. killing badgers). So easy for them to come out with "evidence based" and "no assumptions before evidence" now, but when it comes to new legislation it could easily be based on interested parties, PR, votes, etc. Undoubtedly they will get "evidence" from pro and anti compulsion and it comes down to how the Government weights such evidence and that can be influenced by many factors (just look at Hunts misuse of research when trying to argue his wishes for extended NHS hours).

Ian

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Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby bovlomov » 24 Nov 2017, 11:12pm

If you don't mind high blood pressure, you could watch this Newsnight feature on cycle helmets. Starts 22.45. Newsnight is billed as
In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.

But all I saw was a terrible interviewer who knew nothing about the subject, lobbing soft questions at a bloke from Headway, who could in any case barely answer them, and then throwing loaded questions at a Green politician, who also wasn't too sure of her facts.

Is it too much to expect, to have credible interviewees and an interviewer who is interested in pursuing the truth?

What a load of X&%*@@#!

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Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby Psamathe » 24 Nov 2017, 11:33pm

bovlomov wrote:If you don't mind high blood pressure, you could watch this Newsnight feature on cycle helmets. Starts 22.45. Newsnight is billed as
In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.

But all I saw was a terrible interviewer who knew nothing about the subject, lobbing soft questions at a bloke from Headway, who could in any case barely answer them, and then throwing loaded questions at a Green politician, who also wasn't too sure of her facts.

Is it too much to expect, to have credible interviewees and an interviewer who is interested in pursuing the truth?

What a load of X&%*@@#!

I saw it and it was truly ... an example of terrible reporting. Only thing of interest (and something that was already raised and obvious) is that the Headway organisation is going to be putting up a real fight so I hope the various cycling bodies fully appreciate that and put in every effort to counter the lobbying/representations they will be making (which I assume they have seem before and are probably published).

I'm no expert but from what others (with far more knowledge than I have) have posted here, the guy from Headway was talking at least some untrue stuff. And disappointed that the Green Party (?) person did not mention that a helmet can make some accidents worse (or rather make the riders injury worse).

Ian

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Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby bovlomov » 24 Nov 2017, 11:37pm

Psamathe wrote:And disappointed that the Green Party (?) person did not mention that a helmet can make some accidents worse (or rather make the riders injury worse).

And while quoting a load of stats will probably put people off, if she had been half briefed, she could have demolished many of his claims. Wark accidentally asked Mr Headway a relevant question, at which point he started waffling about the Highway Code. Any journalist would have picked up on that diversionary tactic. She didn't.