Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 4034
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby bovlomov » 24 Nov 2017, 11:45pm

Wark: Why is there no definitive evidence?
Mr Headway: Weelll... ...the Highway Code advises people....

It's almost as if he knew the right answer to that question but couldn't bring himself to say it.

Thermostat9
Posts: 268
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 5:38pm

Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby Thermostat9 » 25 Nov 2017, 8:05am

Psamathe wrote:Only thing of interest (and something that was already raised and obvious) is that the Headway organisation is going to be putting up a real fight

I thought the Headway drone was full of opinion and very short on facts. Put him in front of someone like Chris Boardman and he would crumble.

Psamathe wrote:I'm no expert but from what others (with far more knowledge than I have) have posted here, the guy from Headway was talking at least some untrue stuff.

To put it mildly. He spouted evocative conjecture.

Phil Fouracre
Posts: 806
Joined: 12 Jan 2013, 12:16pm
Location: Deepest Somerset

Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby Phil Fouracre » 25 Nov 2017, 8:36am

Just watched it! Depressing wasn't the word, really hope that Headway doesn't have any influence, having listened to him :-(
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity

Jon Lucas
Posts: 238
Joined: 6 Mar 2009, 6:02pm

Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby Jon Lucas » 25 Nov 2017, 8:47am

Phil Fouracre wrote:Just watched it! Depressing wasn't the word, really hope that Headway doesn't have any influence, having listened to him :-(


Too late for that. Headway, and all the other assorted pro-helmet lobbyists, have already infected the mindset of Mr and Mrs Average to the extent that they expect cyclists to be wearing them. And sadly many do.

User avatar
Tigerbiten
Posts: 1923
Joined: 29 Jun 2009, 6:49am

Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby Tigerbiten » 25 Nov 2017, 11:18am

A couple of questions to ponder.

At this moment you don't need a helmet on a motor trike
So if this goes through, will you need to wear a helmet on a pedal trike ??

Recumbents have completely different crash dynamics to upwrongs.
You're a lot lower to start with so any head hitting falls will have a lot less energy and if you crash into something, you'll smash your ankles not your head.
Will these point be raised ??

I ride a recumbent trike, so all valid points for me.

Psamathe
Posts: 10603
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby Psamathe » 25 Nov 2017, 11:28am

Jon Lucas wrote:
Phil Fouracre wrote:Just watched it! Depressing wasn't the word, really hope that Headway doesn't have any influence, having listened to him :-(


Too late for that. Headway, and all the other assorted pro-helmet lobbyists, have already infected the mindset of Mr and Mrs Average to the extent that they expect cyclists to be wearing them. And sadly many do.

And I suspect the outcome will be political (the reason the whole thing started was political so it's all being a very political exercise). So press will probably be a significant player and guess who will be getting most prominence on the pages of those papers.

Ian

User avatar
The utility cyclist
Posts: 2484
Joined: 22 Aug 2016, 12:28pm
Location: The first garden city

Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby The utility cyclist » 25 Nov 2017, 11:29am

Jon Lucas wrote:
Phil Fouracre wrote:Just watched it! Depressing wasn't the word, really hope that Headway doesn't have any influence, having listened to him :-(


Too late for that. Headway, and all the other assorted pro-helmet lobbyists, have already infected the mindset of Mr and Mrs Average to the extent that they expect cyclists to be wearing them. And sadly many do.

It's worse than that, they've infected the minds of cycling organisations, police, judges, insurers, CPS and indeed sporting/club/weekend warrior cyclists who are all duped into thinking that a helmet can save their life/save them from serious injury all the whilst ignoring the facts.

The sporting cyclist ignores that there are more deaths in the pro ranks since helmet compulsion despite better brakes, better tyres, more marshals, more barriers, more on course safety measures, better medi care. That's not even taking into account how (more) often they crash and get injured.

The whole way that 'stats' are massaged to suit an agenda is not just dishonest, it's fraud/misrepresentation which could have an end result to not only remove freedoms but enforce an imbalance in freedom (which in fact we suffer already)
In my eyes the police have no authority with regards to this, IF an unlawful act is passed re helmet/hi-vis the police would be breaking their oath enforcing it. Their oath clearly states they are there to keep the peace, not wearing such is no breach of the peace, their oath states they have to act impartially, punishing/forcing someone to do x whilst not applying the same rules to others IS most definitely impartial.

Any assault, threat of kidnap or attempt to deprive me of my chattel by a constable would be met with appropriate action to prevent such.

User avatar
gaz
Posts: 13745
Joined: 9 Mar 2007, 12:09pm
Location: Kent, car park of England

Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby gaz » 25 Nov 2017, 11:35am

Tigerbiten wrote:Recumbents have completely different crash dynamics to upwrongs.
You're a lot lower to start with so any head hitting falls will have a lot less energy and if you crash into something, you'll smash your ankles not your head.
Will these point be raised ??

Yes, Legway will be at the meeting advocating compulsory shin pads and knee protectors :wink: .
Hand wash only. Do not iron.

User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby meic » 25 Nov 2017, 11:46am

Tigerbiten wrote:A couple of questions to ponder.

At this moment you don't need a helmet on a motor trike
So if this goes through, will you need to wear a helmet on a pedal trike ??

Recumbents have completely different crash dynamics to upwrongs.
You're a lot lower to start with so any head hitting falls will have a lot less energy and if you crash into something, you'll smash your ankles not your head.
Will these point be raised ??

I ride a recumbent trike, so all valid points for me.


No, you still legally need to have pedal reflectors in the dark, dont you!
Yma o Hyd

User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 4034
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby bovlomov » 25 Nov 2017, 11:55am

I've made a complaint to the BBC.

I said that asking Headway to discuss helmets is like asking Nigel Lawson to discuss climate change. Neither have any expertise or credibility in the field.

Perhaps they couldn't find any experts to spout such unequivocal drivel.
Last edited by bovlomov on 25 Nov 2017, 1:47pm, edited 1 time in total.

brynpoeth
Posts: 11292
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby brynpoeth » 25 Nov 2017, 12:29pm

Maybe we could get help from some experts:

Dr Robert Davis
John Adams
Gerd Gigerenzer

There are surely more, these three occur to me without goegeling
Entertainer, kidult, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

User avatar
Tigerbiten
Posts: 1923
Joined: 29 Jun 2009, 6:49am

Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby Tigerbiten » 25 Nov 2017, 1:47pm

meic wrote:
Tigerbiten wrote:A couple of questions to ponder.

At this moment you don't need a helmet on a motor trike
So if this goes through, will you need to wear a helmet on a pedal trike ??

Recumbents have completely different crash dynamics to upwrongs.
You're a lot lower to start with so any head hitting falls will have a lot less energy and if you crash into something, you'll smash your ankles not your head.
Will these point be raised ??

I ride a recumbent trike, so all valid points for me.


No, you still legally need to have pedal reflectors in the dark, dont you!

I know the points about pedal reflectors not working on recumbents in the dark was raised when that law was passed.
But that advice ignored ...... :(
Just like I'll ignore this one ......... :D

User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 4034
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby bovlomov » 25 Nov 2017, 1:55pm

brynpoeth wrote:Maybe we could get help from some experts:

Dr Robert Davis
John Adams
Gerd Gigerenzer

There are surely more, these three occur to me without goegeling

Is it worth having a list of people, to send to the BBC and other media organisations? I can imagine how it works at the moment. They decide to have a discussion about helmets, and send a researcher off to find someone from either side. Of course, a Google search will throw up (being the right term) the likes of Headway. And no one in that organisation is going to turn down a TV appearance.

I doubt whether it has ever occurred to anyone at the BBC to ask: what does a Headway representative know about helmets, materials science, risk analysis, road safety or cycling? (Answer: Nothing). They are just happy to have a talking head that is clearly on one side of the debate. As long as they can find any old mug to sit in the other chair, they can call it balance.

Stevek76
Posts: 510
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby Stevek76 » 25 Nov 2017, 3:01pm

From what I gather they basically have a list of go to people for various things. To get on this list I think it's mostly a case of offering your services, one of my previous employers marketing dept had a bit of a drive once to see if any suitably experienced/qualified individuals were willing to do this sort of thing. I thought eg John Adams has been on the BBC for some stuff, Chris Boardman also has. However keep in mind that this was a same day thing. They may have asked more suitable people who had availability issues.

User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 4034
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: Government consultation on compulsory Helmets & Hivis for cyclists

Postby bovlomov » 25 Nov 2017, 3:45pm

Stevek76 wrote: However keep in mind that this was a same day thing. They may have asked more suitable people who had availability issues.
True. Why does Headway never have availability issues?