Confirmed, helmets are useless and decrease cycling safety & participation

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
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The utility cyclist
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Confirmed, helmets are useless and decrease cycling safety & participation

Postby The utility cyclist » 9 Apr 2018, 11:00am

what we all knew.
Changes in participation, demographics and hazard associated with mandatory bicycle helmets in New South Wales, Australia

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 0517306576

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mjr
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Re: Confirmed, helmets are useless and decrease cycling safety & participation

Postby mjr » 9 Apr 2018, 12:29pm

Interesting conclusion. Thanks for sharing. "That bicycle helmets have prevented some fatalities and reduced some injuries is not disputed. However, the factors mentioned above are able to explain most or all of the observed reductions in fatalities and provide a better explanation of the pattern of those reductions than mandatory helmet legislation" - where the factors are primarily other road danger reduction measures, including "mobile speed cameras, random breath testing, and “black spot” remediation", new cycleways away from roads, participation decline and that decline being largest amongst the under-20s, who died most often before the law.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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pjclinch
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Re: Confirmed, helmets are useless and decrease cycling safety & participation

Postby pjclinch » 9 Apr 2018, 2:02pm

For some values of useless, that is. You do need to be careful to put in a bit of context, or people just have an excuse to ignore you. For example, the spec of a helmet suggests that you might reasonably expect to be saved a nasty bump, graze and headache in some cases, and that's not "useless", especially if you're e.g. often bashing branches aside on singletrack.

And another thing you need to be very wary of is selective cherry-picking. "Ah, here's a paper that says what I'd like to hear, that's case closed!" It doesn't work to "prove" helmets are useful, and it doesn't work to prove that they're useless. Getting published in peer review is not the end of the argument, it's the beginning of the discussion.

Not that I disagree with this paper, but saying it confirms that helmets are useless is at best rather naive.

Pete.
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De Sisti
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Re: Confirmed, helmets are useless and decrease cycling safety & participation

Postby De Sisti » 9 Apr 2018, 3:02pm

mjr wrote:Interesting conclusion. Thanks for sharing. "That bicycle helmets have prevented some fatalities .....

For that to be the case you'd surely have to have the same accident under the exact same circumstances
with and without a helmet for it to be true; otherwise it's just pure supposition.

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pjclinch
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Re: Confirmed, helmets are useless and decrease cycling safety & participation

Postby pjclinch » 9 Apr 2018, 3:29pm

De Sisti wrote:
mjr wrote:Interesting conclusion. Thanks for sharing. "That bicycle helmets have prevented some fatalities .....

For that to be the case you'd surely have to have the same accident under the exact same circumstances
with and without a helmet for it to be true; otherwise it's just pure supposition.


I suspect it's at least in part a psychological nod to people who've invested a lot of faith in helmets and don't want to be told they've been completely misguided.
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Confirmed, helmets are useless and decrease cycling safety & participation

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 9 Apr 2018, 4:11pm

Hi,
In my local paper this week-
"A helmet most certainly" prevented serious injury. (local cycle race on tarmac)
"A seat belt saved their life highly probable" (Road collision)
Not my words but the papers (IIRC, similar to the words I have used without getting my paper from other room).

In industry you will see time again even challenge media type construction programs with so called experts, flaunting regulation standards in safety, that any real time served tradesman would cringe at.

You pays your money and takes your choice.............just don't try and change others opinions / choice of habits :)

Imagine suggesting some one to do something and then them having that one time freak collision....................
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Mike Sales
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Re: Confirmed, helmets are useless and decrease cycling safety & participation

Postby Mike Sales » 9 Apr 2018, 4:16pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,

Imagine suggesting some one to do something and then them having that one time freak collision....................


And they die in spite of their helmet!
Wouldn't you worry that all the propaganda had made them feel safer than warranted?

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mjr
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Re: Confirmed, helmets are useless and decrease cycling safety & participation

Postby mjr » 9 Apr 2018, 4:34pm

De Sisti wrote:
mjr wrote:Interesting conclusion. Thanks for sharing. "That bicycle helmets have prevented some fatalities .....

For that to be the case you'd surely have to have the same accident under the exact same circumstances
with and without a helmet for it to be true; otherwise it's just pure supposition.

You've cut that mid-sentence! It merely notes that it's not disputed in this paper. It does not say they agree with it! And despite not challenging that claim, they still find other factors explain the change in casualty data.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Confirmed, helmets are useless and decrease cycling safety & participation

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 9 Apr 2018, 4:45pm

Hi,
Mike Sales wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,

Imagine suggesting some one to do something and then them having that one time freak collision....................


And they die in spite of their helmet!
Wouldn't you worry that all the propaganda had made them feel safer than warranted?


Whose fault is it that some one dies despite wearing a helmet and then ride through red lights...............
We have two arguments here of age and under age, if you are old enough your choice if not then its a matter for some one at the top to make firm decisions on clear advise.

I think we can all agree that no one has the sense or balls to take charge of the situation.
But there are many other parts of our children's care / education that is failing, I just wish that children who are under age were not used like pawns by the media in all situations not just helmets.

I don't have the answer.
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Wanlock Dod
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Re: Confirmed, helmets are useless and decrease cycling safety & participation

Postby Wanlock Dod » 9 Apr 2018, 6:55pm

Lemon wrote:That bicycle helmets have prevented some fatalities and reduced some injuries is not disputed. However, the factors mentioned
above are able to explain most or all of the observed reductions in fatalities and provide a better explanation of the pattern of those
reductions than mandatory helmet legislation.

Or to rephrase without fear of loss of future research funding:
Regardless of any protective effects that helmets might have, other factors are better able to explain the observed reduction in injuries.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Confirmed, helmets are useless and decrease cycling safety & participation

Postby Cunobelin » 9 Apr 2018, 7:03pm

I still want to see the research proving how effective helmets are for pedestrians

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pjclinch
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Re: Confirmed, helmets are useless and decrease cycling safety & participation

Postby pjclinch » 9 Apr 2018, 7:10pm

Cunobelin wrote:I still want to see the research proving how effective helmets are for pedestrians


IIRC someone in Japan did do an experiment with pedestrian helmets... <quick Google> . Ah, here we go!
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brynpoeth
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Re: Confirmed, helmets are useless and decrease cycling safety & participation

Postby brynpoeth » 9 Apr 2018, 8:43pm

pjclinch wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:I still want to see the research proving how effective helmets are for pedestrians


IIRC someone in Japan did do an experiment with pedestrian helmets... <quick Google> . Ah, here we go!

And how effective they are for motorists of course
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott

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Mick F
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Re: Confirmed, helmets are useless and decrease cycling safety & participation

Postby Mick F » 10 Apr 2018, 6:44am

brynpoeth wrote:
pjclinch wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:I still want to see the research proving how effective helmets are for pedestrians


IIRC someone in Japan did do an experiment with pedestrian helmets... <quick Google> . Ah, here we go!

And how effective they are for motorists of course
helmet_causes.jpg
helmet_causes.jpg (16.67 KiB) Viewed 406 times
Mick F. Cornwall

De Sisti
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Re: Confirmed, helmets are useless and decrease cycling safety & participation

Postby De Sisti » 10 Apr 2018, 9:40am

Mick F wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:
pjclinch wrote:
IIRC someone in Japan did do an experiment with pedestrian helmets... <quick Google> . Ah, here we go!

And how effective they are for motorists of course
helmet_causes.jpg

https://www.nbt.nhs.uk/our-services/a-z ... -unit-hitu
A colleague's mother was in this unit (suffered a fall at home). She (colleague) told me that many of the
paitients on the ward were there due to head trauma suffered in motor vehicle accidents (she was told this
by the medical staff)
.