Old Skool

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
Grandad
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Re: Old Skool

Postby Grandad » 19 May 2018, 11:50pm

My club has no helmet rule but does strongly recommend their use. There is however a rule that everyone must be a member of BC or CUK.

esuhl
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Re: Old Skool

Postby esuhl » 20 May 2018, 2:03am

I was gobsmacked the other day, when I cut through a quiet cul-de-sac and saw a mother with her 4(?) year old daughter, both on bikes, riding in circles at 2mph, neither wearing helmets! Gasp!

And I have seen one or two other cyclists without helmets this year. I used to think I was the only one!

I've never even tried wearing a helmet. When I got hit by a car, I covered my bike in reflective tape, bought fluorescent clothes, doubled the number of lights on my bike (and started using them during the day). But there's no way I'd ride with a helmet. For me, it would take the fun (and the feeling of freedom) out of riding a bike.

Grandad wrote:... There is however a rule that everyone must be a member of BC or CUK.


Why is that? Is it something to do with insurance...?

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Wanlock Dod
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Re: Old Skool

Postby Wanlock Dod » 20 May 2018, 6:12am

Flinders wrote:Unlike old-type helmets, modern ones really aren't hot to wear. I've honestly never seen why anyone would have a problem wearing one....

I suspect that the vast majority of the population don't have a problem with cyclists wearing helmets, they simply choose not to cycle at all because it is clearly too risky these days, why else would all those cyclists be wearing helmets. I dare say some of them would like to cycle but won't because it is clearly too dangerous, or at least that is the impression I get from talking to them. For most people the choice seems to be one of whether to ride with a helmet (presumably in very dangerous conditions) or just drive a car instead.

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Cugel
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Re: Old Skool

Postby Cugel » 20 May 2018, 8:26am

Grandad wrote:My club has no helmet rule but does strongly recommend their use. There is however a rule that everyone must be a member of BC or CUK.

The club I belong to has a similar rule; also one about paying yearly subs (only ten quid). Many ignore both rules, even those who get quite hoity-toity about how all should wear a helmet or be judged "irresponsible".

People are queer things.

Cugel

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Cugel
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Re: Old Skool

Postby Cugel » 20 May 2018, 8:42am

esuhl wrote:I was gobsmacked the other day, when I cut through a quiet cul-de-sac and saw a mother with her 4(?) year old daughter, both on bikes, riding in circles at 2mph, neither wearing helmets! Gasp!

And I have seen one or two other cyclists without helmets this year. I used to think I was the only one!

I've never even tried wearing a helmet. When I got hit by a car, I covered my bike in reflective tape, bought fluorescent clothes, doubled the number of lights on my bike (and started using them during the day). But there's no way I'd ride with a helmet. For me, it would take the fun (and the feeling of freedom) out of riding a bike.

Grandad wrote:... There is however a rule that everyone must be a member of BC or CUK.


Why is that? Is it something to do with insurance...?

Yes, third party insurance so that if a club member does a thing that causes damage to another person or their property, recompense is possible. There's also the legal representation service....

In general, a cycling club benefits from a good rule set, since their activities are all about interacting with others in circumstances where many behaviours could cause others injuries, damage, nuisance or just bad feelings. Rules about being insured, riding together in a disciplined fashion, being in a fit condition for the ride and being considerate to other road users are all useful.

A rule about helmets doesn't seem to be of that kind. A helmet offers something only to the wearer, not other members of the club or other road users. Worse, it doesn't actually offer anything to the wearer, if the many studies concerning cycling helmets are considered. The cycling helmet seems to offer only profits to the makers & sellers along with an opportunity for self-appointed helmet policemen to perform their little-hitler act.

Cugel

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foxyrider
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Re: Old Skool

Postby foxyrider » 20 May 2018, 8:56am

Just remembered, out yesterday and I think all the adult cyclists I saw had helmets on, some gave my bare head clearly envious looks, well I was crossing the infamous Strines road where you get quite warm!

Then as I headed into more sedate country I was really heartened. A young lady of maybe 8 riding alone (no sign of a parent) in a summer frock with her dolly in a back pack and (shock horror) neither of them wearing a helmet! By the confident way she was riding i'd say she rides regularly and enjoys doing so - it really was refreshing to see.

Of course this is Yorkshire so maybe the kids are tougher and more bike aware than elsewhere! Lol :lol: :lol: :lol:
Convention? what's that then?
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Grandad
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Re: Old Skool

Postby Grandad » 20 May 2018, 11:13am

Yes, third party insurance so that if a club member does a thing that causes damage to another person or their property, recompense is possible. There's also the legal representation service..

Most Home insurance policies include Third Party cover for members of the household whilst cycling but it was decided that this could not be an alternative as it would be impractical (impossible?) to check

The club I belong to has a similar rule; also one about paying yearly subs (only ten quid). Many ignore both rules,

No chance of ignoring it as the CUK/BC membership number has to be given on the club membership application form

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RickH
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Re: Old Skool

Postby RickH » 20 May 2018, 5:49pm

IIRC BC's 3rd party insurance does not extend to other BC members, whereas the Cycling UK's insurance has no similar restriction.

slowster
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Re: Old Skool

Postby slowster » 20 May 2018, 7:25pm

RickH wrote:IIRC BC's 3rd party insurance does not extend to other BC members, whereas the Cycling UK's insurance has no similar restriction.

That's interesting and prompted me to check the relevant page of their website (https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/thirdpartyliability):

What is not covered?

Important exclusions include:
...
The following member to member liability claims (claims made against one British Cycling member by another(2)):
One member against another in a cycling competition, race, time trial or timed event(3).
Any liability directly or indirectly caused to a member’s immediate family.

(2) A member for these purposes being a British Cycling Race Gold, Race Silver or Ride member.

(3) Typically, but not exclusively, a Sportive or other such organised mass participation event where times are recorded.

On the face of it, I can understand the exclusion of member to member liability for the relatively high risk scenario of racing, especially road racing where riders are racing at speed in very close proximity and a moment's inattention or error of judgement by one person might easily cause a crash with potentially very severe consequences.

However, the inclusion of sportive type events seems to be a strong disincentive actually to be a member of BC, given that it is not necessary to be a BC member to enter a sportive event (whereas it is to enter a road race). If you are a member and are injured by another BC member's negligent riding in a sportive, the BC policy will not provide cover for the negligent rider's liability (so instead you have to hope that they have some other insurance that will cover them, e.g. bundled in as part of their household insurance cover). Therefore if you are injured by a BC member in a sportive, it's better not to be a member yourself, because then the insurance cover would apply.

To add insult to injury, if you are a BC member and are injured by the negligent act of another BC member or event organiser, the BC's legal support service will not help you either:

Unfortunately, the British Cycling Incident Helpline and British Cycling’s solicitors will not support a legal action:

against another British Cycling member.
against a member of one’s immediate family.
where there is a conflict of interest between a member and British Cycling eg where a claim may be against an organiser or official of a British Cycling registered event (1)

In contrast CUK does provide member to member liability as RickH states, including for sportives and time trials.

ossie
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Re: Old Skool

Postby ossie » 20 May 2018, 8:43pm

Wanlock Dod wrote:
Flinders wrote:I suspect that the vast majority of the population don't have a problem with cyclists wearing helmets, they simply choose not to cycle at all because it is clearly too risky these days, why else would all those cyclists be wearing helmets. I dare say some of them would like to cycle but won't because it is clearly too dangerous, or at least that is the impression I get from talking to them. For most people the choice seems to be one of whether to ride with a helmet (presumably in very dangerous conditions) or just drive a car instead.


I have close members of my family and many friends who don't cycle because of the perceived risk. However not once have they ever mentioned helmets as being the magical answer to their worries.

They worry about the roads and traffic and simply don't want to put themselves into that situation.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Old Skool

Postby The utility cyclist » 21 May 2018, 4:16pm

foxyrider wrote:Just remembered, out yesterday and I think all the adult cyclists I saw had helmets on, some gave my bare head clearly envious looks, well I was crossing the infamous Strines road where you get quite warm!

Then as I headed into more sedate country I was really heartened. A young lady of maybe 8 riding alone (no sign of a parent) in a summer frock with her dolly in a back pack and (shock horror) neither of them wearing a helmet! By the confident way she was riding i'd say she rides regularly and enjoys doing so - it really was refreshing to see.

Of course this is Yorkshire so maybe the kids are tougher and more bike aware than elsewhere! Lol :lol: :lol: :lol:

My grandson is 4 (southern softie but he's in training under my wing :lol: ), he rides down the grassy bank of the park with no helmet. crashing/making mistakes is how we learn, will he eventually crash and hurt himself, probably, but given the numbers of deaths of children doing that when on a bike it really isn't something I'm stressing about. I find it desperately sad seeing kids in bright clothing and helmets when riding (bikeability are the big culprits here!!) it sucks the fun and freedom right out of it and just continues the cycle of blame/responsibility displacement and cycling is dangerous mantra.

A helmet changes significantly negatively how people on bikes think (and other sports/activities), this is more noticeable in children and sporting cyclists but for somewhat different reasons. Children because they are not as nuanced/not as capable of assessing risk, what boundaries are and their understanding of what's about them, the feeling protected aspect and how it changes their thinking is very marked in how it influences risk taking (loads of studies showing this) and in sporting types simply going beyond their limitations or pushing the boundary of what is acceptable within groups or as an individual. it's no real surprise that despite better tyres, better brakes, better/easier handling frames, despite better on course safety protocols, more doctors, more marshalls, more barriers there are more crashes and more deaths in the pro ranks than pre helmet compulsion.

Group riding in clubs/sportives etc is more riskier/more crashy than it's ever been, this is primarily down to helmet wearing giving a false sense of safety, and yet we have groups/clubs, race/ride organisers insisting on them for 'safety' which has such a huge negative influence on rider behaviour, you couldn't make it up! :twisted:
Am I anti helmet, you bet I am!

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mjr
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Re: Old Skool

Postby mjr » 21 May 2018, 5:57pm

mercalia wrote:do they have straps so it dont blow off? thats the other aspect

My legionnaires cap does - it's basically a baseball cap with extra cloth inside that can be dropped down to shade the neck in summer. I got it from Mountain Warehouse which I don't really like but they sell some useful stuff. It might not be too difficult to fix some similar elastic onto another hat you like, although how good it'll look will depend how neat your sewing is!
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mjr
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Re: Old Skool

Postby mjr » 21 May 2018, 6:00pm

Wanlock Dod wrote:[This is also my perception, and whilst the lidless are still hopelessly outnumbered I put their seemingly increasing numbers down to it getting progressively harder and harder to avoid the truth.

I think it's increasing, now spreading from most adults here to increasingly more children - however, the official statistics are that the lidless have always been the overwhelming majority. I suspect it's just that lid users are a very visible minority, with club riders and people cycling on major routes being more likely to use than others, as well as the near-blanket coverage in the media: yet again, the printed press is lying to you.
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mjr
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Re: Old Skool

Postby mjr » 21 May 2018, 6:01pm

flat tyre wrote:Yes I've noticed this too, little children on scooters etc wearing helmets. Extending this logic, shouldn't they be wearing helmets when using the equipment in the childrens play park, e.g. climbing frames, swings, roundabouts etc?

Please don't use cycle helmets for this: even with the improved standard for straps to break open more easily, they're still a strangulation hazard.
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mjr
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Re: Old Skool

Postby mjr » 21 May 2018, 6:14pm

Flinders wrote:Unlike old-type helmets, modern ones really aren't hot to wear.

Pull the other one - just search cycling social networks for the questions about how to clean up sweaty helmet pads!

I've honestly never seen why anyone would have a problem wearing one.

Maybe you like the muscular challenge of balancing inconveniently-shaped extra weight and size on your head as far from your neck as possible or the constant test of hearing the world around you over the wind noise, but I certainly didn't! And why do all that and have all the practical drawbacks for basically no significant benefit in the type of collision most likely to kill you?

Since reading up on them and especially how several helmet rules and laws have had to be forced through by dirty tricks, I'm disappointed they haven't failed the laugh test like walking helmets still do.

Where I can see a practical objection is that they are a nuisance to cart around when you're off the bike. For people doing short slow runs on decent road surfaces, or smooth off-road tracks, I can see an argument for not bothering, though I always wear one and just stuff it in the pannier(s) or clip it to the pannier straps when off the bike.

I don't always have a pannier. Maybe you've forgotten the freedom of doing a multistop urban journey wearing a small messenger bag and not taking clothes off/on or attaching/detaching anything from the bike except the parking stands?

I used to see helmets left locked to bikes, which made sense, but that was back in the day when helmets were a bit chunkier.

If you believe that a helmet is useful, I can't see how it makes sense to leave it where others will bash it about unseen while parking their bikes - but then I don't understand why people buy helmets and then misuse them in other ways, with dangling chinstraps, tilted right back on their head, things stuck onto it and so on...
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