Cycling is so very dangerous !!

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brynpoeth
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Re: CYCLING IS SO DANGEROUS !!

Postby brynpoeth » 9 Jan 2019, 4:18pm

The utility cyclist wrote:..
And as usual the logic for this thinking has none. Why is there a risk of coming off, is it because behahiour in the first instance is not appropriate for the conditions, usually going too fast, not paying attention to road surface despite already decreed in advance you know it to be not that great. So what happens when you wear a helmet, people take greater risk at those same points thus increases chance of an off than before, it does exacerbate this.
Doesn't wearing the helmet increase the chances of a head strike in any case where you are massively more likely to miss striking your head without?

Don't you find it somewhat more than coincidental that the weekend warrior and this is directly aimed at BC et al, that there has been significant increases in coming off the bike and getting injured/striking their heads, swiftly followed by the 'helmet saved my life' story, since helmet wearing became a thing?
I don't, they go hand in hand and is replicated in every country and at competition level. it's a total false logic that says, increased chance of coming off, so let's increase it further whilst increasing chance of a head strike by making our heads significantly heavier and bigger
Self serving to say the least.

Utility describes the situation well
My head is big enough without a h****t :wink:
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RickH
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Re: CYCLING IS SO DANGEROUS !!

Postby RickH » 9 Jan 2019, 4:51pm

Marcus Aurelius wrote:As a BC ride leader you have to risk asses your routes to satisfy the insurance requirements. If you asses a part of a route as having a potential increased risk of riders falling, the mitigation could be using a lid. Then wearing a lid becomes a requirement for participation in the ride. I don’t personally include such things in my risk assessments, but I know lots of RLs that do. BC’s risk assessment for Ride Leaders on an official Guided ride does include these terms, so RLs have to wear a lid on an official Guided Ride. Personally, I’ve had a few ‘offs’ in the past, where my head has taken the brunt of the impact. Therefore I think a lid is a worthwhile thing to wear. I certainly don’t expect anyone else to wear a lid if they don’t want to. I wish they would, but I don’t try and make anyone do so.

I've not been involved for 2018/19 so things may have changed, especially as there is much more flexibility for ride leaders to organise their own routes. But, when I trained as a BC ride leader & route planner under the Skyride set up, advocating helmets as a mitigation was never mentioned as an option. Advising participants to take extra care, walk a section or use an alternative route if the conditions could be variable. Or, of course, not going that way at all & choosing a better route.

Syd
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Re: Cycling is so very dangerous !!

Postby Syd » 9 Jan 2019, 4:56pm

We keep hearing statements like ‘wearing a helmet increases the chance of a head strike”.

Other than anecdotal evidence does anyone have facts or figures to support this? Genuinely curious.

I have only ever struck my head once in an ‘off’ and know for sure* I would have struck my head with of without a helmet.

*details available if required just don’t want to bore folk unnecessarily.

brynpoeth
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Re: Cycling is so very dangerous !!

Postby brynpoeth » 9 Jan 2019, 5:02pm

Syd wrote:We keep hearing statements like ‘wearing a helmet increases the chance of a head strike”.

Other than anecdotal evidence does anyone have facts or figures to support this? Genuinely curious.

I have only ever struck my head once in an ‘off’ and know for sure* I would have struck my head with of without a helmet.

*details available if required just don’t want to bore folk unnecessarily.

Please to bore us

I imagine a situation where one falls off, lands on the ground, a shoulder is about as high as a kerb, shoulder keeps the head off the ground so it does not hit the kerb
With a h****t the head is bigger, h****t catches the kerb, neck is wrenched
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Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Cycling is so very dangerous !!

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 9 Jan 2019, 5:34pm

Syd wrote:We keep hearing statements like ‘wearing a helmet increases the chance of a head strike”.

Other than anecdotal evidence does anyone have facts or figures to support this? Genuinely curious.

I have only ever struck my head once in an ‘off’ and know for sure* I would have struck my head with of without a helmet.

*details available if required just don’t want to bore folk unnecessarily.


Well you’ve joined the ranks of discovering this, without having to work it out the hard way.

Syd
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Re: Cycling is so very dangerous !!

Postby Syd » 9 Jan 2019, 5:53pm

Marcus Aurelius wrote:
Syd wrote:We keep hearing statements like ‘wearing a helmet increases the chance of a head strike”.

Other than anecdotal evidence does anyone have facts or figures to support this? Genuinely curious.

I have only ever struck my head once in an ‘off’ and know for sure* I would have struck my head with of without a helmet.

*details available if required just don’t want to bore folk unnecessarily.


Well you’ve joined the ranks of discovering this, without having to work it out the hard way.

Please explain your logic there.

Syd
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Re: Cycling is so very dangerous !!

Postby Syd » 9 Jan 2019, 5:58pm

brynpoeth wrote:
Syd wrote:We keep hearing statements like ‘wearing a helmet increases the chance of a head strike”.

Other than anecdotal evidence does anyone have facts or figures to support this? Genuinely curious.

I have only ever struck my head once in an ‘off’ and know for sure* I would have struck my head with of without a helmet.

*details available if required just don’t want to bore folk unnecessarily.

Please to bore us

I imagine a situation where one falls off, lands on the ground, a shoulder is about as high as a kerb, shoulder keeps the head off the ground so it does not hit the kerb
With a h****t the head is bigger, h****t catches the kerb, neck is wrenched

Short version:

Hit by car causing me to rotate and land flat on my back on the road. Speed at point of impact with car circa 20mph, likely lost some of that speed flying through the air. Significant compression on back of my Grio headwear.

There is absolutely no way my head would not have hit the road in those circumstances, Giro headwear or not.

I’d also love to meet those with the monument neck muscles that could stop their head impacting in the circumstances you described.

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mjr
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Re: Cycling is so very dangerous !!

Postby mjr » 9 Jan 2019, 6:16pm

Syd wrote:Short version:

Hit by car causing me to rotate and land flat on my back on the road. Speed at point of impact with car circa 20mph, likely lost some of that speed flying through the air. Significant compression on back of my Grio headwear.

There is absolutely no way my head would not have hit the road in those circumstances, Giro headwear or not.

I’d also love to meet those with the monument neck muscles that could stop their head impacting in the circumstances you described.

There probably aren't neck muscles big enough for that one, but the back of a cycle helmet is not normally protective. The tested protective zone is the top, some cm above the horizontal equator of the head - please excuse me not looking up the standards right away but I will if you want to know.

If I remember correctly (we don't discuss crashes often!), someone I know was told by medics that if they'd been wearing a helmet when they landed flat on their back, they would probably have broken their neck, because their head would have stuck out backwards further. I think you had a lucky escape.
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Syd
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Re: Cycling is so very dangerous !!

Postby Syd » 9 Jan 2019, 6:20pm

mjr wrote:
Syd wrote:Short version:

Hit by car causing me to rotate and land flat on my back on the road. Speed at point of impact with car circa 20mph, likely lost some of that speed flying through the air. Significant compression on back of my Grio headwear.

There is absolutely no way my head would not have hit the road in those circumstances, Giro headwear or not.

I’d also love to meet those with the monument neck muscles that could stop their head impacting in the circumstances you described.

There probably aren't neck muscles big enough for that one, but the back of a cycle helmet is not normally protective. The tested protective zone is the top, some cm above the horizontal equator of the head - please excuse me not looking up the standards right away but I will if you want to know.

If I remember correctly (we don't discuss crashes often!), someone I know was told by medics that if they'd been wearing a helmet when they landed flat on their back, they would probably have broken their neck, because their head would have stuck out backwards further. I think you had a lucky escape.


I agreed with you on that one. I do however doubt the medics assertion that a broken neck may have been the result sans helmet. Whiplash more possible / probable.

brynpoeth
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Re: Cycling is so very dangerous !!

Postby brynpoeth » 9 Jan 2019, 7:27pm

The head and neck evolved to be how they are for good reasons, might be best not to suddenly modify them by adding a h****t
One wonders whether ancient people often tripped when chasing mammoths

Just like the ankles, discussed recently in connection with walking boots
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Cycling is so very dangerous !!

Postby [XAP]Bob » 10 Jan 2019, 2:48pm

Syd wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:
Syd wrote:We keep hearing statements like ‘wearing a helmet increases the chance of a head strike”.

Other than anecdotal evidence does anyone have facts or figures to support this? Genuinely curious.

I have only ever struck my head once in an ‘off’ and know for sure* I would have struck my head with of without a helmet.

*details available if required just don’t want to bore folk unnecessarily.

Please to bore us

I imagine a situation where one falls off, lands on the ground, a shoulder is about as high as a kerb, shoulder keeps the head off the ground so it does not hit the kerb
With a h****t the head is bigger, h****t catches the kerb, neck is wrenched

Short version:

Hit by car causing me to rotate and land flat on my back on the road. Speed at point of impact with car circa 20mph, likely lost some of that speed flying through the air. Significant compression on back of my Grio headwear.

There is absolutely no way my head would not have hit the road in those circumstances, Giro headwear or not.

I’d also love to meet those with the monument neck muscles that could stop their head impacting in the circumstances you described.


First up...
congratulations on being the first person I have ever seen to describe a helmet actually potentially doing something useful.
Second up...
any idea how high you were thrown?

Third up, you may well have had one of the (relatively) few accidents where a polystyrene hat helped. That doesn't make them a universally good idea.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Cycling is so very dangerous !!

Postby Tangled Metal » 10 Jan 2019, 4:11pm

Interesting comment about what a friend of a friend got told by medics. Is that medic's opinion right because he / she made a comment against wearing a helmet? I only ask because in helmet threads people criticise medics who claim a helmet was a benefit by questioning the basis of their statements.

If one medic says helmets help and another says they don't then IMHO look elsewhere for your answers. I don't personally rate medics as the best people to advise on performance of helmets. They're probably great in repairing injuries but inadequate in assessing effect of helmets or lack of helmets on the injury severity.

I still think I had the patience of a Saint when an A&E registrar told our son he should have been wearing a helmet to prevent him having to visit A&E. I politely asked if he should have worn it on the elbow he broke in the fall then left it at that. I really couldn't look at him after that I was a bit angry with his comments.

Basically anyone quoting a medical professional in relation to effect of helmets in the event of accidents needs to look for better sources of information to refer to IMHO.

Syd
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Re: Cycling is so very dangerous !!

Postby Syd » 10 Jan 2019, 5:28pm

[XAP]Bob wrote:
Syd wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:Please to bore us

I imagine a situation where one falls off, lands on the ground, a shoulder is about as high as a kerb, shoulder keeps the head off the ground so it does not hit the kerb
With a h****t the head is bigger, h****t catches the kerb, neck is wrenched

Short version:

Hit by car causing me to rotate and land flat on my back on the road. Speed at point of impact with car circa 20mph, likely lost some of that speed flying through the air. Significant compression on back of my Grio headwear.

There is absolutely no way my head would not have hit the road in those circumstances, Giro headwear or not.

I’d also love to meet those with the monument neck muscles that could stop their head impacting in the circumstances you described.


First up...
congratulations on being the first person I have ever seen to describe a helmet actually potentially doing something useful.
Second up...
any idea how high you were thrown?

Third up, you may well have had one of the (relatively) few accidents where a polystyrene hat helped. That doesn't make them a universally good idea.

I have CCTV from a home beside the road. From that I was thrown slightly up and forward. Judging from known items in the frame I’ve calculated, at maximum point in the trajectory, my head was just under 2 metres off the road.

landsurfer
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Re: Cycling is so very dangerous !!

Postby landsurfer » 10 Jan 2019, 5:54pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Basically anyone quoting a medical professional in relation to effect of helmets in the event of accidents needs to look for better sources of information to refer to IMHO.


Totally right ... when did a Nurse, Para Medic or non specialist Doctor suddenly become Helmet Mechanics experts ... pretty sure there is no module during Doctors training labeled " The mechanics and dynamics of skull diameter extension and resultant moment effects on the skull and spine" ... :lol:

If i'm wrong please, please tell me .. :)
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Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Cycling is so very dangerous !!

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 11 Jan 2019, 12:01pm

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/173464 ... est-hears/

An interesting read, the Coroner’s comments in particular.