Page 1 of 2

Helmet reports show up concerns

Posted: 15 Nov 2019, 4:02pm
by Steady rider
'Wearing a cycle helmet may increase risk of injury, says new research'
https://road.cc/content/news/268605-wea ... 2OSuO_yT0k
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... jury_rates

'Turns Out, Mandatory Helmet Laws Make Cyclists Less Safe'
https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a2980 ... aws-safety

Clarke CF Evaluating cycling fatality risk with a focus on cycle helmet use
http://worldtransportjournal.com/wp-con ... 4.4opt.pdf

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Posted: 16 Nov 2019, 7:19am
by tim-b

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Posted: 16 Nov 2019, 9:46am
by mjr

By notorious helmet zealot Jake Olivier...

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Posted: 16 Nov 2019, 9:55am
by Oldjohnw
So. One report by a notorious helmet zealot. And the other is by a notorious anti-helmet zealot.

More heat than light.

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Posted: 16 Nov 2019, 10:06am
by Steady rider
Jake Olivier wrote;
Clarke’s primary argument is what I call the ‘helmet law as cycling deterrent’ hypothesis. There’s no real, solid evidence to support this hypothesis, yet it has not stopped those like Clarke to proclaim its truth to anyone who cares to listen

Olivier gave evidence to the Australian Senate in 2015
Senator David Leyonhjelm – Liberal Democratic Party stated;
During the course of the hearing, and based on available data, it became clear
MHL have undermined cycling participation rates. Attempts to argue to the contrary,
especially given evidence from around the world, were not at all persuasive.


https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Bu ... m_report_d

Olivier and co authors have not been willing to accept the fact that helmet laws when enforced have discouraged cycling and have produced a number of misleading reports.

see
http://www.cycle-helmets.com/robinson-head-injuries.pdf
http://www.cycle-helmets.com/nz-clarke-2012.pdf published by the NZ Medical Journal
http://worldtransportjournal.com/wp-con ... 4.4opt.pdf note census data
http://www.cycle-helmets.com/au-assessment-2015.pdf

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Posted: 16 Nov 2019, 10:49am
by Vorpal
None of those are new research, and they aren't unfortunately entirely statistically sound, which is only going to make the Oliviers of the world jump up and down and scream about bias.

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Posted: 17 Nov 2019, 5:43pm
by Wanlock Dod
Vorpal wrote:None of those are new research, and they aren't unfortunately entirely statistically sound...

Would you be prepared to outline your concerns about the statistical analysis, and offer any suggestions as to how it might be improved?

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Posted: 17 Nov 2019, 5:59pm
by Vorpal
Wanlock Dod wrote:
Vorpal wrote:None of those are new research, and they aren't unfortunately entirely statistically sound...

Would you be prepared to outline your concerns about the statistical analysis, and offer any suggestions as to how it might be improved?

Maybe? My main problem is the time to do so.

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Posted: 18 Nov 2019, 10:03pm
by PaulaT
Vorpal wrote:None of those are new research, and they aren't unfortunately entirely statistically sound, which is only going to make the Oliviers of the world jump up and down and scream about bias.


I do hope they're wearing helmets when engaged in such risky physical activity :D

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Posted: 19 Nov 2019, 6:13am
by Marcus Aurelius
Not all ‘injuries’ are the same. Helmets reduce the risk of the sorts of injuries that are more likely to kill, or severely debilitate the rider.

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Posted: 19 Nov 2019, 7:12am
by Mike Sales
Marcus Aurelius wrote:Not all ‘injuries’ are the same. Helmets reduce the risk of the sorts of injuries that are more likely to kill, or severely debilitate the rider.


Really? What makes you say that? Evidence?

In any case, the current uncertainty about any benefit from helmet wearing or promotion is unlikely to be substantially reduced by further research. Equally, we can be certain that helmets will continue to be debated, and at length. The enduring popularity of helmets as a proposed major intervention for increased road safety may therefore lie not with their direct benefits—which seem too modest to capture compared with other strategies—but more with the cultural, psychological, and political aspects of popular debate around risk.


Ben Goldacre, Wellcome research fellow in epidemiology, David Spiegelhalter, Winton professor for the public understanding of risk


https://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f3817.full?ijkey=I5vHBog6FhaaLzX&keytype=ref


The tests which helmets are designed to pass simulate impacts of about 12 mph.

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Posted: 19 Nov 2019, 1:08pm
by mattheus
Marcus Aurelius wrote:Not all ‘injuries’ are the same. Helmets reduce the risk of the sorts of injuries that are more likely to kill, or severely debilitate the rider.


Naaaaah ... it's almost certainly the opposite; they're REALLY good for mitigating minor cuts, grazes and bruises. Especially on the upper head - less so for dental injuries (which I've suffered and witnessed).

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Posted: 19 Nov 2019, 4:52pm
by Wanlock Dod
It is a great irony that the cycling conditions that helmets are designed for are exactly the kinds of conditions that many people choose not to wear a helmet for, and the kinds of conditions where helmets are unlikely to be very effective are just the kinds of conditions where lots of people believe that helmets are essential.

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Posted: 19 Nov 2019, 5:24pm
by philg
Mike Sales wrote:The tests which helmets are designed to pass simulate impacts of about 12 mph.

Which if my (very) rusty Physics is correct, is almost exacty the value of the vertical component of velocity for a body (head) falling from a height of 2m, coincidence?

Sadly they are not designed for a horizontal impact of any speed higher than this (i.e. head butting a tree at 30mph) but in my not inconsiderable experience of parting company with my bike, this isn't commonplace, fortunately.

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Posted: 19 Nov 2019, 5:37pm
by Mike Sales
philg wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:The tests which helmets are designed to pass simulate impacts of about 12 mph.

Which if my (very) rusty Physics is correct, is almost exacty the value of the vertical component of velocity for a body (head) falling from a height of 2m, coincidence?

Sadly they are not designed for a horizontal impact of any speed higher than this (i.e. head butting a tree at 30mph) but in my not inconsiderable experience of parting company with my bike, this isn't commonplace, fortunately.


There are other items which one's head might encounter with a horizontal component in its flight.
Walls, street furniture, curbs, even a motor vehicle.
I seem to remember head to windscreen impacts often mentioned.
Fortunately I have had too few offs to draw any conclusions.
I did bang my head on the road once, perhaps at the vertical downward speed of 12 mph. I was wearing a cotton Festina cap and did no noticeable damage to myself. I imagine our skulls evolved to handle bumps of this order.
I was replying to a poster who claimed foam hats work best at high impact energies.