Page 2 of 10

Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Posted: 22 Jan 2020, 12:14pm
by Bonefishblues
Climbing helmets are to protect from impacts from up the mountain, not to provide any protection from falling down the mountain.

Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Posted: 22 Jan 2020, 1:14pm
by Cunobelin
Is it because everyone is told that helmets are the panacea for all head injuries?

The problems with climbing frames, trees etc are well documented, but not well known

EN 1080 has been established for some years 2013 (IIRC) yet how many parents know about it, - the mantra id any helmet will save your child's life and the ignorance of standards is legendary.

Just a quick google from a couple of major companies and organisations, no mention of EN1080:

Kids Helmets

Does my child need a cycling helmet?
When your child gets their first kids bike, it’s a good idea to get them a helmet so they are safe when learning to ride and Evans Cycles stock a wide range of helmets for children. We strongly recommend that children should wear a helmet at all times. The choice of children’s helmet is also important, for example; helmets for infants are much deeper at the rear to protect the back of the head.


What should I look for when choosing a child’s bike helmet?
Helmets are made from fairly inexpensive materials. A more expensive helmet won’t necessarily offer better protection – what it will offer is lighter weight, better ventilation and more style. Style is especially important when it comes to picking the right helmet for your child because if they don’t like theirs, they won’t want to wear it. Ventilation is also important, especially as your son or daughter rides faster and further.

You can buy all styles of helmets, including road, mountain bike and even full-face, in children’s sizes and designs.


I will identify TRIUK however as being the only one that mentions EN1080

KIDS HELMETS

A standard has also been designed for younger children’s helmets, known as EN1080. The difference between this and the EN1078 standard is that the chin strap is attached differently to an EN1080 standard helmet. With these helmets, the chin strap is designed to snap off during a collision to prevent the child from choking or being strangled if the helmet snags.



Even when you go to buy a helmet, there is no advice or mention of EN1080, again this is a random sample - no mention of EN1080 or the dangers:


HELP YOUR KIDDO ENJOY THEIR FIRST RIDES THE MOST WITH THE SCAMP MIPS® HELMET, EQUIPPED WITH EVERYTHING FROM A PINCH-GUARD BUCKLE TO THE ROC LOC JR. FIT SYSTEM SO HELMET-WEARING IS A BREEZE.

DETAILS
THE SCAMP MIPS® IS PACKED WITH AMAZING FEATURES, INCLUDING SOME OF THE SAME ELEMENTS FOUND IN OUR BEST ADULT HELMETS, ALL IN A SMALLER PACKAGE DESIGNED TO FIT YOUR CHILD.

The Roc Loc Jr. fit system with pinch-guard buckle provides an easy way to fit your kid's helmet quickly and securely. With a wide size range, your child can use this helmet as they grow from balance bikes to training wheels. The design is inspired by the adults' Montaro MIPS® / Montara MIPS®, and since the Scamp is available in a range of kid-friendly colors and designs, Let your child pick out their favorite so they'll be excited to wear it every time they ride. The Scamp MIPS® also has the inclusion of the Multi-Directional Impact Protection System, which we believe can redirect energy and provide more protection in certain impacts.

Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Posted: 22 Jan 2020, 1:24pm
by Vorpal
profpointy wrote:Whilst not exactly common, it has happened enough for statistics to be collected in Scandinavia.


That is partly because Scandinavian children wear helmets, yet, like Dutch children, they ride their bikes without their parents, and play out independently at much higher levels than in the UK. Playground equipment in Norway and Sweden have little signs that helmets must be removed before climbing. I've seen kids a few times on the playground equipment in Norway with helmets on. When I told them to take their helmets off, they said that they just forgot, and went immediately to remove them, in a way that made me think their parents had told them not to climb anything wearing a cycle/skate helmet.

Despite that, Sweden have made helmets a legal requirement for children under 16.

Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Posted: 22 Jan 2020, 1:30pm
by mjr
profpointy wrote:The thing that's bizarre about this is people seem to say you shouldn't wear a helmet to climb trees or playground equipment are often the same people who claim it's obvious that you should wear one on a bike. To me, it's "obvious" (albeit may not be true) that you should wear a helmet if climbing stuff.

Well it's clearly obvious to many that you have a greater risk of head injury while cycling than while climbing trees or climbing frames(!) ;)

More seriously: should a climbing helmet be the same design as a bike helmet?

profpointy wrote:This sad case, and many like it, show that safety decisions aren't straightforward. For what it's worth I would tend to wear a helmet if climbing anything - and I'd not want a break away chin strap because I want it to still be on my head when I land - This may or may not be the right bet to make

I think I'd bet that if I fall on my head, head impact injuries will be irrelevant because of the neck injury. I may wear a helmet while climbing to protect me from clocking myself on a scaffold bar, but I think a simple bump cap would be better than a typical construction helmet (too big - I've been forever striking beams on the few occasions I've had to wear one) or a cycle helmet (too hot for climbing and the strap system are a choke risk).

Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Posted: 22 Jan 2020, 2:26pm
by Marcus Aurelius
You seem to have missed out the words “whilst climbing a tree, whilst wearing the helmet, and not whilst riding her bike”

Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Posted: 22 Jan 2020, 2:46pm
by Mick F
mjr wrote:
Mick F wrote:I blame the helmet straps and fixings. It could happen to anyone. The clips are designed to be secure and the straps are strong. There is no "weak-point" to give way. All helmets are the same as far as I know.

https://www.satra.com/ppe/EN1080.php is different to the adult helmet standard EN1078 in requiring "The helmet retention system must be capable of self-release if the wearer becomes trapped by the helmet and there is a risk of strangulation." Now you know! I wonder why that helmet didn't.
The retention system must fail (i.e. release) under a force of between 90 and 160 Newtons. To illustrate the weight or mass involved, 160 Newtons is the force applied by a mass of about 16kg.


16Kg?
That's 35lbs in real money.
Two and a half stone. :shock:
That's pulling vertically.

I wouldn't like to hang from a tree by my helmet straps even though I weigh twelve stone.
By the time my weight had pulled sufficiently to "fail" my helmet clips, I'm be injured, or even strangled.

I still have my helmet. Specialized S3 not worn for some years.
I may hang a 35lbs weight from the straps to see what would happen. Somehow I doubt it would release.

May even just pull as hard as I can.

Back later with some info.

Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Posted: 22 Jan 2020, 2:56pm
by Mick F
Just looked.
Can't find my helmet.

Asked the font of all knowledge ......... Mrs Mick F.
She told me that I'd given it to a charity shop a year ago. :lol:

Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Posted: 22 Jan 2020, 2:59pm
by mattheus
We need a Zwift for tree-climbing.

Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Posted: 22 Jan 2020, 3:09pm
by mjr
Mick F wrote:I still have my helmet. Specialized S3 not worn for some years.
I may hang a 35lbs weight from the straps to see what would happen. Somehow I doubt it would release.

Unless it's a child's helmet designed to EN1080, I don't think it's required to. I can't see anything similar in https://www.satra.com/ppe/EN1078.php

Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Posted: 22 Jan 2020, 3:30pm
by The utility cyclist
Vorpal wrote:I think helmets & playgrounds both should have obvious & strongly worded warnings that cycle & skate helmets must not be worn during other activities than what they are designed for. I think that would make more parents aware of the dangers.

But surely a helmet is of more use whilst children are playing given the numbers of head injuries and deaths from such away from cycling?
I personally think it should be compulsory for children to wear them when playing out, afterall if many lives and serious injuries are saved at the expense of one or two then that has to be a good thing right?
And we know that cycle helmets save tens of thousands if not millions of cyclists lives virtually every day, we are told precisely that ad infinitum by cyclists, head injury charities and the police and other organisations so it must be true, thus they are perfect for children to wear when playing out or even within the home as those nasty stair and coffee/kitchen/dining room tables, concrete floors etc can give children a serious TBI without them.

Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Posted: 22 Jan 2020, 3:36pm
by The utility cyclist
Mick F wrote:I climbed trees for most of my childhood, and also into my youth-hood. Latterly, aged 15/16 I would climb a big sycamore near where we lived and take my telescope up with me. Thinking about it, I could have been well over 50ft up, and it was amazing to me how the perspective of the area was so different from being on the ground. I could see as far as Wigan at over 6miles ............. as the crow flies.
.

Bad luck :lol:

Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Posted: 22 Jan 2020, 4:10pm
by Mick F
:lol:
Thread drift alert!

We lived in Newburgh from about 1966. Lived previously in Wrightington, and before that in Standish.
Dad was a Wigganer, as was all his upbringing and his ancestors.
I was at school in Wigan.

From my tree in Newburgh, I could see Wigan.
Screen Shot 2020-01-22 at 16.08.37.png

Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Posted: 22 Jan 2020, 7:08pm
by Cunobelin
Mick F wrote::lol:
Thread drift alert!

We lived in Newburgh from about 1966. Lived previously in Wrightington, and before that in Standish.
Dad was a Wigganer, as was all his upbringing and his ancestors.
I was at school in Wigan.

From my tree in Newburgh, I could see Wigan.Screen Shot 2020-01-22 at 16.08.37.png


Didn't the red line, a hundred yards wide block your view?

Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Posted: 22 Jan 2020, 8:31pm
by Mick F
:lol: :lol:
Illustrative red line of course.

Parblod Hill is the major obstruction for looking east from Newburgh along the Douglas Valley, but Wigan is off to the right of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parbold

We lived here, at No7.
Moved in when they were brand new.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.58432 ... 312!8i6656

Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Posted: 27 Jan 2020, 2:15pm
by The utility cyclist
Mick F wrote::lol:
Thread drift alert!

We lived in Newburgh from about 1966. Lived previously in Wrightington, and before that in Standish.
Dad was a Wigganer, as was all his upbringing and his ancestors.
I was at school in Wigan.

From my tree in Newburgh, I could see Wigan.

My partner is from Up Holland, never Orrell, and most certainly not Skem or Wigan, her mum got a bit upset about that the first time I said that they lived in Wigan :lol:
I went to Wigan in the early 80s watching my rugby team from the furthest end of the M62, aside from the old Central Park being a Tesco, nowt had changed much some 30+yrs later 8)