Four year old killed by bike helmet.

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Bonefishblues
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Bonefishblues » 16 Jun 2020, 5:26pm

mikeymo wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:ALL child safety helmets not fitted with the green buckle will fail, as Mick's posts earlier thread helped to explain. The buckle tightens/locks when pulled, as its design provides.


I'm confused, isn't that the opposite of what you would want on a child's helmet? Shouldn't it be designed to release?

To clarify, green ones are designed to release at a predetermined load, black buckles get tighter. My reply was to the previous post.

bazzo
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby bazzo » 17 Jun 2020, 3:22pm

Mick F wrote:Those clips on helmet straps are of a design used in many places. Even our doggie's collar has them and I have a trouser belt with one.
The harder you pull the harder they are to open. There is no "emergency release" for them either.

With research, I could find the name of these clips. Maybe someone on here knows the name?
Whatever the name, it's a stupid design for a bike helmet .......... or any helmet for that matter.

I think they are called Trident connectors, three prongs.

mikeymo
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby mikeymo » 17 Jun 2020, 4:37pm

Cugel wrote:There is no doubt that protection from harm via a device detracts from the user's ability to assess and deal the associate dangers themselves. If the device fails or ir awarded far more ability than it actually possesses.....


Tell me, have you ever worked in the construction industry?

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby [XAP]Bob » 18 Jun 2020, 3:19pm

mikeymo wrote:
Cugel wrote:There is no doubt that protection from harm via a device detracts from the user's ability to assess and deal the associate dangers themselves. If the device fails or ir awarded far more ability than it actually possesses.....


Tell me, have you ever worked in the construction industry?


Why - you offering supporting or contradicting evidence from that industry?
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

mikeymo
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby mikeymo » 18 Jun 2020, 4:34pm

[XAP]Bob wrote:
mikeymo wrote:
Cugel wrote:There is no doubt that protection from harm via a device detracts from the user's ability to assess and deal the associate dangers themselves. If the device fails or ir awarded far more ability than it actually possesses.....


Tell me, have you ever worked in the construction industry?


Why - you offering supporting or contradicting evidence from that industry?


I'll tell you what, you answer questions that are addressed directly to you, how about that?

Vorpal
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Vorpal » 18 Jun 2020, 7:36pm

mikeymo wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:
mikeymo wrote:
Tell me, have you ever worked in the construction industry?


Why - you offering supporting or contradicting evidence from that industry?


I'll tell you what, you answer questions that are addressed directly to you, how about that?


The concept of risk compensation is known among safety professionals in the construction industry, though knowledge of it is not universal. Is that what you are getting at?

HSE professionals generally apply the Heirarchy of Controls

HierarchyOfControls.jpg


which generally looks something like this. Although there are variations. PPE always comes last. That is partly because of risk compensation, and partly because of other behvioural aspects. And partly because there is mixed or limited supporting evidence to supprot the use of some PPE (e.g. toetectors)

HOWEVER cycle helmets are not considered PPE. Cycle helmets have *specifically* been excluded from regulations that cover PPE https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg174.pdf
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom


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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby [XAP]Bob » 18 Jun 2020, 8:58pm

mikeymo wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:
mikeymo wrote:
Tell me, have you ever worked in the construction industry?


Why - you offering supporting or contradicting evidence from that industry?


I'll tell you what, you answer questions that are addressed directly to you, how about that?


Once you’ve learned the concept of a group discussion then do get back to it.
If you want to ask a question privately then that option is available - you didn’t take it.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

mikeymo
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby mikeymo » 18 Jun 2020, 9:08pm

I like to keep hydrochloric acid in the fridge in a bottle marked "orange juice".

That way my kids learn to be careful and not rely on safety devices like labels. I'd hate them to grow up and develop "risk compensation".
Last edited by mikeymo on 18 Jun 2020, 9:38pm, edited 1 time in total.

mikeymo
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby mikeymo » 18 Jun 2020, 9:36pm

This is interesting, but probably not for the reason that the (apparently) telepathic authors think it is:
https://eprints.qut.edu.au/64759/1/AUBEA_Yingbin_Feng.pdf

I myself am guilty of indulging in the odd bit of risk compensation. Deepest apologies.

"No, I will not work there until there is a guard rail".

Guard rail is erected.

"Yes, I'll work there now".

I suppose that is binary risk compensation.

Of course the question not answered in the study above is how many deaths or injuries there would be in the Australian construction industry if guard rails were never erected, nobody wore steel toe caps or face masks, or fall restraint systems hadn't been invented.

At least one poster here, apparently in all seriousness, believes that cycle helmets (and also hi-viz I think) should actually be banned. By law. It would be a fascinating experiment, and I would love to see the YouTube videos of the police enforcing the new "law". Still there would be a bit of "risk compensation" here, as I would stop cycling.

My personal experience as a manager in the construction industry was that those operatives more aware of risk and danger were also those who used PPE more frequently, and engaged in safer work practices. Generally older workers, having seen a thing or two.

mikeymo
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby mikeymo » 19 Jun 2020, 1:19am

Vorpal wrote:And partly because there is mixed or limited supporting evidence to supprot the use of some PPE (e.g. toetectors)


I dropped a pneumatic drill on my toe once, wearing ordinary wellies.

It felt like evidence to me.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby [XAP]Bob » 19 Jun 2020, 12:34pm

mikeymo wrote:
Vorpal wrote:And partly because there is mixed or limited supporting evidence to supprot the use of some PPE (e.g. toetectors)


I dropped a pneumatic drill on my toe once, wearing ordinary wellies.

It felt like evidence to me.


Looks like an anecdote from everywhere else and multiple anecdotes only make anecdata. Data needs research to find, not just talking to people who remember dropping things on their feet.

The question is... If you had been wearing steel toe*cap* boots, would you be more likely to take the shortcut of lifting the drill over your foot, rather than stepping out of the way first?

Does that increase the number of times you drop the drill on your foot (it almost certainly would), and more importantly you could drop the drill *behind* the toecap, where there is no protection, and therefore do just as much damage - risk compensation leading to an increase in broken feet isn't an unlikely result.
Now there is the slight issue here that steel capped boots tend to be all over more sturdy than wellies, but the point holds.

Whenever I've been using a pneumatic drill I've either worn "sensible" (even if not toe capped) shoes, or been VERY careful about handling the drill. Wearing even "sensible" footwear certainly decreased the care I took...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby [XAP]Bob » 19 Jun 2020, 12:40pm

mikeymo wrote:I like to keep hydrochloric acid in the fridge in a bottle marked "orange juice".

That way my kids learn to be careful and not rely on safety devices like labels. I'd hate them to grow up and develop "risk compensation".


There is no real learning opportunity unless you have many kids...

There are plenty of safety devices which work very well, though the better solutions are always those that engineer the risk out of existence rather than partially mitigating the result.

Where the mitigation is so slight as to be negligible the overall risk to a population can, and will, increase.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

mikeymo
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Joined: 27 Sep 2016, 6:23pm

Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby mikeymo » 19 Jun 2020, 1:03pm

[XAP]Bob wrote:
mikeymo wrote:
Vorpal wrote:And partly because there is mixed or limited supporting evidence to supprot the use of some PPE (e.g. toetectors)


I dropped a pneumatic drill on my toe once, wearing ordinary wellies.

It felt like evidence to me.


Looks like an anecdote from everywhere else and multiple anecdotes only make anecdata. Data needs research to find, not just talking to people who remember dropping things on their feet.

The question is... If you had been wearing steel toe*cap* boots, would you be more likely to take the shortcut of lifting the drill over your foot, rather than stepping out of the way first?

Does that increase the number of times you drop the drill on your foot (it almost certainly would), and more importantly you could drop the drill *behind* the toecap, where there is no protection, and therefore do just as much damage - risk compensation leading to an increase in broken feet isn't an unlikely result.
Now there is the slight issue here that steel capped boots tend to be all over more sturdy than wellies, but the point holds.

Whenever I've been using a pneumatic drill I've either worn "sensible" (even if not toe capped) shoes, or been VERY careful about handling the drill. Wearing even "sensible" footwear certainly decreased the care I took...


You're completely correct. You've run rings round me, logically.

If I ever return to the construction industry I will insist that all my workers wear flip flops. Then they will be really really careful.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Bonefishblues » 19 Jun 2020, 1:48pm

A 4 year old was killed by hanging in a neighbouring village and is the sad subject of this thread. There are other thread to have these fights on guys.