Four year old killed by bike helmet.

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
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Wanlock Dod
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Wanlock Dod » 10 Feb 2020, 6:46pm

mikeymo wrote:You think that a law obliging you to wear a helmet when cycling is a breach of your human rights? Is that what you're saying?

Would you consider a law requiring women to wear equipment to protect themselves from rapists to be a breach of human rights?

niggle
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby niggle » 10 Feb 2020, 6:52pm

Wanlock Dod wrote:
mikeymo wrote:You think that a law obliging you to wear a helmet when cycling is a breach of your human rights? Is that what you're saying?

Would you consider a law requiring women to wear equipment to protect themselves from rapists to be a breach of human rights?

Quite, like a burka or some such, the Taliban only have women's best interests at heart after all :wink:

Mike Sales
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Mike Sales » 10 Feb 2020, 6:58pm

Civil disobedience is a long established way of drawing attention to unjust laws and getting them changed.
As part of a campaign to get rid of a law which I believe would be very bad for the cause of getting more people to ride their bike, I would certainly risk punishment. Threatening to take away my bikes would make me think hard though.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Oldjohnw » 10 Feb 2020, 8:09pm

Has compulsory wearing of helmets been promoted by the government? If so, I will join the expressions of moral outrage and campaign there with you. If not, I will continue to fight existing injustices.
John

mikeymo
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby mikeymo » 10 Feb 2020, 8:19pm

Oldjohnw wrote:Has compulsory wearing of helmets been promoted by the government? If so, I will join the expressions of moral outrage and campaign there with you. If not, I will continue to fight existing injustices.


Seems not.

"The Department for Transport said: “The government has no plans to mandate the wearing of cycle helmets.”"

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/nov/24/no-plan-to-make-cycle-helmets-compulsory-in-safety-review-minister

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby The utility cyclist » 10 Feb 2020, 8:55pm

mikeymo wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:I'd rather go to prison than give up cycling because my human rights were being breached.


You think that a law obliging you to wear a helmet when cycling is a breach of your human rights? Is that what you're saying?

Absolutely it is, a law, well actually legalese forcing me to wear is unlawful in itself, this is pretty obvious. I won't bow to such, do what you like but I'm not wearing one whatever or wherever. I chose not to travel/cycle in countries that have unjust rules that actively discriminate and breach human rights to travel unencumbered.

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Mick F
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Mick F » 10 Feb 2020, 9:14pm

Pastychomper wrote: ................... but still - what kind of thinking or coincidence would lead to such a strong clip being used on a child's helmet?
It's not just a child's helmet, but ALL helmets.
Child's helmets are bad enough, but they're all the same. Same straps, same clips, same design.

You helmet wearers out there in "Cycling World" ................. get hold of your helmet, connect the strap and try to pull it apart.
I'll guarantee it won't release. The harder you pull, the more difficult it is to unclip.

We could all be hanged by our helmets. Good job I don't wear one any more.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Mick F
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Mick F » 10 Feb 2020, 9:34pm

mjr wrote:
Mick F wrote:I blame the helmet straps and fixings. It could happen to anyone. The clips are designed to be secure and the straps are strong. There is no "weak-point" to give way. All helmets are the same as far as I know.

https://www.satra.com/ppe/EN1080.php is different to the adult helmet standard EN1078 in requiring "The helmet retention system must be capable of self-release if the wearer becomes trapped by the helmet and there is a risk of strangulation." Now you know! I wonder why that helmet didn't.
Just re-reading that link.
Thank you for it.

What it doesn't stipulate, is what defines a "helmet for young children".
What size helmets are they and what size do they get up to before the standard is changed?
Also, why are helmets for young children at a different standard to older children?

The whole subject is horrendous and something that is really upsetting and is frightening me.
Mick F. Cornwall

mikeymo
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby mikeymo » 10 Feb 2020, 10:00pm

https://www.cyclehelmets.org/1227.html

"In absolute terms, the risk of death through wearing a helmet is VERY SMALL."

mikeymo
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby mikeymo » 10 Feb 2020, 10:07pm

The utility cyclist wrote:
mikeymo wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:I'd rather go to prison than give up cycling because my human rights were being breached.


You think that a law obliging you to wear a helmet when cycling is a breach of your human rights? Is that what you're saying?

Absolutely it is, a law, well actually legalese forcing me to wear is unlawful in itself, this is pretty obvious. I won't bow to such, do what you like but I'm not wearing one whatever or wherever. I chose not to travel/cycle in countries that have unjust rules that actively discriminate and breach human rights to travel unencumbered.


You are a very brave man. Please keep standing up for your human rights against the fascists of enforced helmet wearing.

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Mick F
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Mick F » 10 Feb 2020, 10:09pm

mikeymo wrote:https://www.cyclehelmets.org/1227.html

"In absolute terms, the risk of death through wearing a helmet is VERY SMALL."
Of course.

In absolute terms, the risk of death by not wearing a cycle helmet is very small too, if not smaller.

The whole idea of wearing one is to make you safer.
Mick F. Cornwall

Oldjohnw
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Oldjohnw » 10 Feb 2020, 11:58pm

I don't wear a helmet, you don't wear a helmet. No-one is threatening us. There is no law on the way.

So what is this terrible fight in defence of human rights all about? It seems a bit of a quixotic tilting at windmills.

Meanwhile there are many real breaches of human rights taking place.
John

mikeymo
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby mikeymo » 11 Feb 2020, 12:07am

Mick F wrote:
mikeymo wrote:https://www.cyclehelmets.org/1227.html

"In absolute terms, the risk of death through wearing a helmet is VERY SMALL."
Of course.

In absolute terms, the risk of death by not wearing a cycle helmet is very small too, if not smaller.

The whole idea of wearing one is to make you safer.


"if not smaller". You have some data to support that comparison?

mikeymo
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby mikeymo » 11 Feb 2020, 12:11am

Oldjohnw wrote:I don't wear a helmet, you don't wear a helmet. No-one is threatening us. There is no law on the way.

So what is this terrible fight in defence of human rights all about? It seems a bit of a quixotic tilting at windmills.

Meanwhile there are many real breaches of human rights taking place.


Quixotic indeed, I thought the same myself.

Personally I'd be thoroughly ashamed of myself to be claiming my "human rights" were under threat, knowing what life is like for many people in places where their actual human rights are so abused.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Cunobelin » 11 Feb 2020, 6:35am

Mick F wrote:
mjr wrote:
Mick F wrote:I blame the helmet straps and fixings. It could happen to anyone. The clips are designed to be secure and the straps are strong. There is no "weak-point" to give way. All helmets are the same as far as I know.

https://www.satra.com/ppe/EN1080.php is different to the adult helmet standard EN1078 in requiring "The helmet retention system must be capable of self-release if the wearer becomes trapped by the helmet and there is a risk of strangulation." Now you know! I wonder why that helmet didn't.
The retention system must fail (i.e. release) under a force of between 90 and 160 Newtons. To illustrate the weight or mass involved, 160 Newtons is the force applied by a mass of about 16kg.


16Kg?
That's 35lbs in real money.
Two and a half stone. :shock:
That's pulling vertically.

I wouldn't like to hang from a tree by my helmet straps even though I weigh twelve stone.
By the time my weight had pulled sufficiently to "fail" my helmet clips, I'm be injured, or even strangled.

I still have my helmet. Specialized S3 not worn for some years.
I may hang a 35lbs weight from the straps to see what would happen. Somehow I doubt it would release.

May even just pull as hard as I can.

Back later with some info.



An adult cycle helmet would be EN1078 and this does not require the release specified for EN1080