Four year old killed by bike helmet.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Cunobelin » 11 Feb 2020, 6:39am

niggle wrote:What is actually obvious is that a child who goes out riding their bike wearing a helmet might at any moment fancy climbing up something, forgetting or not bothering to remove their helmet, and no amount of signs on trees* or playground climbing equipment is going to work for the ones who cannot be bothered.

*There are apparently about 3.8 billion tress in mainland Britain.

As for the helmet Mick tested, it is clear that at the moment manufacturers and retailers are breaking the law and this needs bringing to the attention of both the authorities and public, Watchdog style. (Does that programme still exist? I do not watch very much TV nowadays.)


See above - not necessarily.

If it was an adult helmet (EN1078) there is no requirement for the release mechanism specific to EN1080

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Mick F
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Mick F » 11 Feb 2020, 7:15am

mikeymo wrote:
Mick F wrote:
mikeymo wrote:https://www.cyclehelmets.org/1227.html

"In absolute terms, the risk of death through wearing a helmet is VERY SMALL."
Of course.

In absolute terms, the risk of death by not wearing a cycle helmet is very small too, if not smaller.

The whole idea of wearing one is to make you safer.


"if not smaller". You have some data to support that comparison?
Read all the helmet threads.
All the data is there.
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Mick F » 11 Feb 2020, 7:22am

Cunobelin wrote:An adult cycle helmet would be EN1078 and this does not require the release specified for EN1080
Thanks for that.
I'll make a note of the EN standards numbers, and when I'm next in a bike shop - Evans Plymouth perhaps - I'll have a look-see and a test of the release systems.

From what I've seen of children's helmets, they have the same securing system as the adult's ones.

What design is the EN1080 securing system, and how is it different to the EN1078?
Are all children's helmets at EN1080? Obviously not, as illustrated by the tragic incident in Bicester.
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby niggle » 11 Feb 2020, 7:49am

Cunobelin wrote:
niggle wrote:What is actually obvious is that a child who goes out riding their bike wearing a helmet might at any moment fancy climbing up something, forgetting or not bothering to remove their helmet, and no amount of signs on trees* or playground climbing equipment is going to work for the ones who cannot be bothered.

*There are apparently about 3.8 billion tress in mainland Britain.

As for the helmet Mick tested, it is clear that at the moment manufacturers and retailers are breaking the law and this needs bringing to the attention of both the authorities and public, Watchdog style. (Does that programme still exist? I do not watch very much TV nowadays.)


See above - not necessarily.

If it was an adult helmet (EN1078) there is no requirement for the release mechanism specific to EN1080

I was referring to this from Mick F:
I was out today loading stuff in a container .................. long story, and irrelevant to my following statement.
I got hold of a childs' bicycle helmet and connected up the strap with its clip.
I'm a strong chap. Strong in the arm and strong in the hand.
I couldn't pull the strap apart no matter how I pulled.

I told the story of the poor four year old, and showed the people around - including a couple of cyclists - of how the damned thing wouldn't release in the slightest.
I wasn't the only one trying. I passed it on to other people to try.
Not one single person, man or woman, could pull it apart.

What a stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid design. :shock:

My bold and not to forget that clearly, for whatever reason, the helmet strap of the four year old girl that died failed to release.

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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby mattheus » 11 Feb 2020, 10:35am

mikeymo wrote:
Mick F wrote:
mikeymo wrote:https://www.cyclehelmets.org/1227.html

"In absolute terms, the risk of death through wearing a helmet is VERY SMALL."
Of course.

In absolute terms, the risk of death by not wearing a cycle helmet is very small too, if not smaller.

The whole idea of wearing one is to make you safer.


"if not smaller". You have some data to support that comparison?


I looked yesterday for data on kids head injuries from cycling, and failed. I'm sure it's out there somewhere.
But what we DO NOT know is how many of those would be prevented by helmets. We do know that if TBIs in adults have been prevented, there is no clear evidence of it.

There's a relevant quote which I think sums this up (on the page linked to above):
A doctor in Sweden lamented, with regard to strangulations in that country and its child helmet law, "We know we have killed, but we can't show we have saved anyone"

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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Cyril Haearn » 11 Feb 2020, 10:38am

mikeymo wrote:Cyclehelmets.org has 15 child deaths, over the last 35 years.

https://www.cyclehelmets.org/1227.html

"In absolute terms, the risk of death through wearing a helmet is very small."

The list is incomplete of course, I saw a report from 2005 that was not mentioned

Surely h****ts could be made to stay on the head without a chinstrap, just moulded, curved in a bit
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Oldjohnw » 11 Feb 2020, 10:54am

I am not a helmet supporter but just to be clear: it was a bad strap not a helmet per se that caused the damage here?

Many years ago a colleague in a prison was nearly strangled by a prisoner using the identity pass lanyard. Lanyards were not scrapped: just made safe.
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 11 Feb 2020, 10:56am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby [XAP]Bob » 11 Feb 2020, 10:56am

Cyril Haearn wrote:Surely h****ts could be made to stay on the head without a chinstrap, just moulded, curved in a bit

Absolutely - right up until there is an event in which they might provide some benefit.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby mattheus » 11 Feb 2020, 11:00am

Oldjohnw wrote:I am not a helmet supporter but just to be clear: it was a bad strap not a helmet per se that caused the damage here?

Many years ago a colleague in a prison was nearly strangled by a prisoner using the identity pass lanyard. Lanyards were not scrapped: just made safe.


The lanyard was pretty safe to start with. The prison guard, less so ...

; -)

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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby [XAP]Bob » 11 Feb 2020, 11:22am

Oldjohnw wrote:I am not a helmet supporter but just to be clear: it was a bad strap not a helmet per se that caused the damage here?

Many years ago a colleague in a prison was nearly strangled by a prisoner using the identity pass lanyard. Lanyards were not scrapped: just made safe.


No - the strap in this case is an integral part of the helmet design. If it wasn't there, or it broke too easily then the hat wouldn't stay on the head in a collision, and would therefore offer no protection just at the point where it might.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Oldjohnw » 11 Feb 2020, 11:43am

mattheus wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:I am not a helmet supporter but just to be clear: it was a bad strap not a helmet per se that caused the damage here?

Many years ago a colleague in a prison was nearly strangled by a prisoner using the identity pass lanyard. Lanyards were not scrapped: just made safe.


The lanyard was pretty safe to start with. The prison guard, less so ...

; -)


The lanyard didn't have a breakpoint: it was inherently unsafe, not just from offenders with bad intent but also accident.
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Oldjohnw » 11 Feb 2020, 11:44am

[XAP]Bob wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:I am not a helmet supporter but just to be clear: it was a bad strap not a helmet per se that caused the damage here?

Many years ago a colleague in a prison was nearly strangled by a prisoner using the identity pass lanyard. Lanyards were not scrapped: just made safe.


No - the strap in this case is an integral part of the helmet design. If it wasn't there, or it broke too easily then the hat wouldn't stay on the head in a collision, and would therefore offer no protection just at the point where it might.


Fair point.
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Vorpal » 11 Feb 2020, 12:06pm

Oldjohnw wrote:I am not a helmet supporter but just to be clear: it was a bad strap not a helmet per se that caused the damage here?

Many years ago a colleague in a prison was nearly strangled by a prisoner using the identity pass lanyard. Lanyards were not scrapped: just made safe.

I am not aware of legal requirements to comply with any standards for child cycle helmets. In Sweden, the clips that release under pull/strangulation forces are green, so that parents can easily identify them. They are also the most commonly sold. This verifies that they meet one of the standards that cover releasing clips, like EN 1080.

Scandinavian children are possibly more susceptible to this risk than those in most other countries. Helmets are encouraged in Norway & required in Sweden for under 16s, and Scandinavian children are much more likely to play out independently from a young age, which makes for a bad combination when it comes to this particular risk. Parents and children alike do seem aware of it. I have told children (not mine) in Norway a few times to take their helmets off when they play, and they have gone immediately to do so, and sort of sheepishly told me they forgot. But there have been a couple of well-publicised incidents.
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Mick F » 11 Feb 2020, 1:49pm

Oldjohnw wrote:The lanyard didn't have a breakpoint: it was inherently unsafe, not just from offenders with bad intent but also accident.
Mrs Mick F has a lanyard for her part-time job. ID card in a plastic thingy to hand round her neck.
The lanyard doesn't have a clip at all. It's one complete loop of nylon webbing.
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Mick F » 11 Feb 2020, 1:52pm

Vorpal wrote: ..... In Sweden, the clips that release under pull/strangulation forces are green, so that parents can easily identify them. They are also the most commonly sold. This verifies that they meet one of the standards that cover releasing clips, like EN 1080.
Like these?
NOT!

Just Google ........... https://www.google.com/search?q=child+c ... 91&bih=709
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