Four year old killed by bike helmet.

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
Oldjohnw
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Oldjohnw » 11 Feb 2020, 2:16pm

Mick F wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:The lanyard didn't have a breakpoint: it was inherently unsafe, not just from offenders with bad intent but also accident.
Mrs Mick F has a lanyard for her part-time job. ID card in a plastic thingy to hand round her neck.
The lanyard doesn't have a clip at all. It's one complete loop of nylon webbing.



But does she work in a prison?!!
John

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Mick F
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Mick F » 11 Feb 2020, 2:33pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
Mick F wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:The lanyard didn't have a breakpoint: it was inherently unsafe, not just from offenders with bad intent but also accident.
Mrs Mick F has a lanyard for her part-time job. ID card in a plastic thingy to hand round her neck.
The lanyard doesn't have a clip at all. It's one complete loop of nylon webbing.



But does she work in a prison?!!
No.
She works - worked - for a local taxi/private hire company and was a personal assistant for the "problem" children needing to be escorted to school, and for the "problem" adults going to centres etc. Any one one of the children or adults could have thrown a hissy fit and become aggressive.

She was a teaching assistant at the local primary school until she retired, plus was the local lollipop lady in the village.
Each job, she had ID on a lanyard.

When I was in the RN, we wore ID externally latterly. Again on a lanyard, but no release clips, just a loop of nylon strapping.

This issue about helmets has legs IMHO. The story and the problems will run and run, and I personally won't let it lie down.
People like Mum's Net and websites like that need informing of the problem.

This is on top of the same issue with adult's helmets.
Why should children have release mechanism, when adults don't?????
I reckon this issue isn't widely known at all and needs (desperately) to be publicised.
Mick F. Cornwall

Oldjohnw
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Oldjohnw » 11 Feb 2020, 3:07pm

Mick F wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
Mick F wrote:Mrs Mick F has a lanyard for her part-time job. ID card in a plastic thingy to hand round her neck.
The lanyard doesn't have a clip at all. It's one complete loop of nylon webbing.



But does she work in a prison?!!
No.
She works - worked - for a local taxi/private hire company and was a personal assistant for the "problem" children needing to be escorted to school, and for the "problem" adults going to centres etc. Any one one of the children or adults could have thrown a hissy fit and become aggressive.

She was a teaching assistant at the local primary school until she retired, plus was the local lollipop lady in the village.
Each job, she had ID on a lanyard.

When I was in the RN, we wore ID externally latterly. Again on a lanyard, but no release clips, just a loop of nylon strapping.

This issue about helmets has legs IMHO. The story and the problems will run and run, and I personally won't let it lie down.
People like Mum's Net and websites like that need informing of the problem.

This is on top of the same issue with adult's helmets.
Why should children have release mechanism, when adults don't?????
I reckon this issue isn't widely known at all and needs (desperately) to be publicised.


I agree with you. Whatever we think about the efficacy of helmets in general, they should at least be safe in the wearing. Adults or children: but, I suppose, especially children because they don't make their own informed decisions.

My point about my lanyard is really that it is perfectly possible for something to open given a quick tug. So whether or not a helmet saves you on your bike, it at least shouldn't hang you accidentally.
John

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Mick F
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Mick F » 11 Feb 2020, 3:27pm

Oldjohnw wrote:I agree with you. Whatever we think about the efficacy of helmets in general, they should at least be safe in the wearing. Adults or children: but, I suppose, especially children because they don't make their own informed decisions.

My point about my lanyard is really that it is perfectly possible for something to open given a quick tug. So whether or not a helmet saves you on your bike, it at least shouldn't hang you accidentally.
Very nicely put.
Thank you.

Our doggie Sailor has a collar with the same design clip. Bigger of course than a helmet, but the same size as a trouser belt.
Neither are designed to pull apart at all.
Mick F. Cornwall

mikeymo
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby mikeymo » 11 Feb 2020, 3:48pm

Mick F wrote:
mikeymo wrote:
Mick F wrote:Of course.

In absolute terms, the risk of death by not wearing a cycle helmet is very small too, if not smaller.

The whole idea of wearing one is to make you safer.


"if not smaller". You have some data to support that comparison?
Read all the helmet threads.
All the data is there.


No, I won't. You made the assertion. It's up to you to support it with evidence.

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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Bonefishblues » 11 Feb 2020, 3:59pm

mikeymo wrote:
Mick F wrote:
mikeymo wrote:
"if not smaller". You have some data to support that comparison?
Read all the helmet threads.
All the data is there.


No, I won't. You made the assertion. It's up to you to support it with evidence.

Please don't take the thread, which originated from the tragic death of a small child, down that route.

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Mick F
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Mick F » 11 Feb 2020, 4:03pm

mikeymo wrote:
Mick F wrote:
mikeymo wrote:
"if not smaller". You have some data to support that comparison?
Read all the helmet threads.
All the data is there.


No, I won't. You made the assertion. It's up to you to support it with evidence.
:roll:

Sorry, not going to do it.
I've read all the helmet threads over the years and made my mind up about the "facts" of the matter.
I've read websites and papers on the matter too.

As far as I can make out, you are safer on a bicycle WITHOUT a hemet than you are wearing one.
Many reasons for this, not least of which is taking more risks when you wear one, plus other road-users treating you differently.

Read what you want.
Make your own mind up.
I've made my mind up, and my helmet is consigned to history.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Mick F
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Mick F » 11 Feb 2020, 4:04pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
mikeymo wrote:
Mick F wrote:Read all the helmet threads.
All the data is there.


No, I won't. You made the assertion. It's up to you to support it with evidence.

Please don't take the thread, which originated from the tragic death of a small child, down that route.
Spot on.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby niggle » 11 Feb 2020, 4:04pm

Until recently I worked in mental health and learning disabilities. We were given ID badges with lanyards with a break away point, but the advice on safe practice in patient conact scenarios was that the lanyards still had a risk as somebody could easily grab the lanyard the 'wrong way' either side of the break waway point. Safe practice in clinical situations was to use the clip that attached it to your shirt etc, the lanyard was for attending meetings etc.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby [XAP]Bob » 11 Feb 2020, 5:48pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
mattheus wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:I am not a helmet supporter but just to be clear: it was a bad strap not a helmet per se that caused the damage here?

Many years ago a colleague in a prison was nearly strangled by a prisoner using the identity pass lanyard. Lanyards were not scrapped: just made safe.


The lanyard was pretty safe to start with. The prison guard, less so ...

; -)


The lanyard didn't have a breakpoint: it was inherently unsafe, not just from offenders with bad intent but also accident.


The lanyard is still quite safe - the wearer less so.

Interestingly I could still strangle someone with my breakaway lanyards - just grab the clip when you lunge for it. Some of those I see have the clip only a few inches from the "business" end, so easily visible (to verify it's a clipped lanyard), but also easily visible (to grab and strangle the wearer).

In a non violent setting I'd struggle to see the lanyard as more of a hazard than say a tie - and the hazards of those are well known, and can be mitigated by tucking it in, or looping behind a shirt button.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Oldjohnw » 11 Feb 2020, 5:54pm

[XAP]Bob wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
mattheus wrote:
The lanyard was pretty safe to start with. The prison guard, less so ...

; -)


The lanyard didn't have a breakpoint: it was inherently unsafe, not just from offenders with bad intent but also accident.


The lanyard is still quite safe - the wearer less so.

Interestingly I could still strangle someone with my breakaway lanyards - just grab the clip when you lunge for it. Some of those I see have the clip only a few inches from the "business" end, so easily visible (to verify it's a clipped lanyard), but also easily visible (to grab and strangle the wearer).

In a non violent setting I'd struggle to see the lanyard as more of a hazard than say a tie - and the hazards of those are well known, and can be mitigated by tucking it in, or looping behind a shirt button.


I fear the distinction between the lanyard or the wearer being safe is perhaps pedantic!

The reality in a custodial setting is that, as far as I know, no attempts to strangle have been made using someone's tie: attempts were made with a lanyard. Our lanyards had the clip behind the neck. You never had your back to a prisoner. Of course, if a prisoner was really set on assault they could do it. But you made it as safe as was possible in most circumstances.
John

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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby mikeymo » 11 Feb 2020, 5:59pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
mikeymo wrote:
Mick F wrote:Read all the helmet threads.
All the data is there.


No, I won't. You made the assertion. It's up to you to support it with evidence.

Please don't take the thread, which originated from the tragic death of a small child, down that route.


I agree. I wonder why so many people are using the tragic death of a small child to push their agenda.

It seems that "evidence" and "rationality" aren't really that valued after all.

Still, I've seen this sort of soft bullying before.

mattheus
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby mattheus » 12 Feb 2020, 9:17am

Oldjohnw wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
The lanyard didn't have a breakpoint: it was inherently unsafe, not just from offenders with bad intent but also accident.


The lanyard is still quite safe - the wearer less so.

Interestingly I could still strangle someone with my breakaway lanyards - just grab the clip when you lunge for it. Some of those I see have the clip only a few inches from the "business" end, so easily visible (to verify it's a clipped lanyard), but also easily visible (to grab and strangle the wearer).

In a non violent setting I'd struggle to see the lanyard as more of a hazard than say a tie - and the hazards of those are well known, and can be mitigated by tucking it in, or looping behind a shirt button.


I fear the distinction between the lanyard or the wearer being safe is perhaps pedantic!

John,
Are you familiar with the internet "smiley" convention? If you can't spot a light-hearted comment when it's staring you in the face, AND you can't recognize popular written signposts that have been in use for over a decade, then I'm not sure how to help you.

Pedal on,
Matt

Oldjohnw
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Oldjohnw » 12 Feb 2020, 9:20am

mattheus wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:
The lanyard is still quite safe - the wearer less so.

Interestingly I could still strangle someone with my breakaway lanyards - just grab the clip when you lunge for it. Some of those I see have the clip only a few inches from the "business" end, so easily visible (to verify it's a clipped lanyard), but also easily visible (to grab and strangle the wearer).

In a non violent setting I'd struggle to see the lanyard as more of a hazard than say a tie - and the hazards of those are well known, and can be mitigated by tucking it in, or looping behind a shirt button.


I fear the distinction between the lanyard or the wearer being safe is perhaps pedantic!

John,
Are you familiar with the internet "smiley" convention? If you can't spot a light-hearted comment when it's staring you in the face, AND you can't recognize popular written signposts that have been in use for over a decade, then I'm not sure how to help you.

Pedal on,
Matt


I am familiar with it but, being human, I occasionally miss something, including the smiley.
John

mattheus
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby mattheus » 12 Feb 2020, 9:25am

Oldjohnw wrote:I am familiar with it but, being human, I occasionally miss something, including the smiley.


Fair enough.

(I try to be sparing with pedantry!)