Four year old killed by bike helmet.

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
Oldjohnw
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Oldjohnw » 12 Feb 2020, 9:34am

mattheus wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:I am familiar with it but, being human, I occasionally miss something, including the smiley.


Fair enough.

(I try to be sparing with pedantry!)



When it comes to pedantry I hold up my hands. (Please note the location of the preposition in that sentence).
John

BlueRider
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby BlueRider » 12 Feb 2020, 10:03am

An outlier event which in no way has any relation to helmet use for cycling.

RIp.

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Mick F
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Mick F » 12 Feb 2020, 10:08am

I disagree.
It's the helmet that wasn't safe. It should have released - cycling or any other activity. They're supposed to save your skull, not strangle you.

When I next visit a bike shop, I'm going to look very closely at the the helmet straps across all sizes and age-groups.
Expect a report back from my findings in the next week or so.

Perhaps other members on here could check as well.
Mick F. Cornwall

Mike Sales
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Mike Sales » 12 Feb 2020, 10:20am

BlueRider wrote:An outlier event which in no way has any relation to helmet use for cycling.

RIp.


This is the epitome of confirmation bias: any event which does not fit your world view can be dismissed as an outlier!

BlueRider
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby BlueRider » 12 Feb 2020, 10:29am

Mike Sales wrote:
BlueRider wrote:An outlier event which in no way has any relation to helmet use for cycling.

RIp.


This is the epitome of confirmation bias: any event which does not fit your world view can be dismissed as an outlier!


How can a climbing accident relate to cycling?

If she had fallen to the ground and her helmet saved her from significant head injury, would you have reported that as well?

I think not.

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Mick F
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Mick F » 12 Feb 2020, 10:59am

It doesn't relate directly to cycling, but it was a cycling helmet for a small child nonetheless.
It was a little girl! What did she know about the risks of climbing a tree with a cycling helmet on?

The helmet strap was defective, or not suitable. I suggest it wasn't suitable for little children.

Even an adult on an MTB riding through the woods is at risk to strangulation by overhanging branches if their helmet straps don't automatically release.

I suggest that ALL cycling helmets should automatically release when pulled.
Mick F. Cornwall

Mike Sales
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Mike Sales » 12 Feb 2020, 11:01am

BlueRider wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
BlueRider wrote:An outlier event which in no way has any relation to helmet use for cycling.

RIp.


This is the epitome of confirmation bias: any event which does not fit your world view can be dismissed as an outlier!


How can a climbing accident relate to cycling?

If she had fallen to the ground and her helmet saved her from significant head injury, would you have reported that as well?

I think not.


It was an accident which resulted from the modern obsession with the dangers of two wheels.
I did not report it.
In spite of your convictions, it is impossible to say, for a specific incident, that a helmet saved injury. All we can do is take the aggregate results of putting large numbers into helmets and counting whether the casualty rate decreases. This is called statistics and is used in various fields, including epidemiology, to assess the efficacy of all sorts of things.
What we can say is that without a helmet this child would not have died.

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Mick F
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Mick F » 12 Feb 2020, 11:03am

PS:
Non-cycling helmets like motorbike helmets, or climbing helmets, or horse-riding helmets .............. are smooth.
Cycling helmets have large vents in the shell for ventilation .............. and are ripe for being snagged. The straps should release instead of strangling.
Mick F. Cornwall

Oldjohnw
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Oldjohnw » 12 Feb 2020, 11:09am

Mike Sales wrote:
BlueRider wrote:An outlier event which in no way has any relation to helmet use for cycling.

RIp.


This is the epitome of confirmation bias: any event which does not fit your world view can be dismissed as an outlier!



Without taking sides, you could also say;

Any event which merely includes a particular word, regardless of context, strengthens a case.
John

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby [XAP]Bob » 12 Feb 2020, 2:33pm

Oldjohnw wrote:The reality in a custodial setting is that, as far as I know, no attempts to strangle have been made using someone's tie: attempts were made with a lanyard. Our lanyards had the clip behind the neck. You never had your back to a prisoner. Of course, if a prisoner was really set on assault they could do it. But you made it as safe as was possible in most circumstances.


Erm - uniformed police wore clip on ties for decades for exactly this reason (at least that's what they told me as kid, which is now some time ago). Of course they now wear stab vests and no ties :(


Exactly what other situation are you trying to protect against with a lanyard? They are (by design) large enough that you can slip one over your head - so pose virtually no risk of strangling/hanging a conscious wearer.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Oldjohnw » 12 Feb 2020, 2:50pm

[XAP]Bob wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:The reality in a custodial setting is that, as far as I know, no attempts to strangle have been made using someone's tie: attempts were made with a lanyard. Our lanyards had the clip behind the neck. You never had your back to a prisoner. Of course, if a prisoner was really set on assault they could do it. But you made it as safe as was possible in most circumstances.


Erm - uniformed police wore clip on ties for decades for exactly this reason (at least that's what they told me as kid, which is now some time ago). Of course they now wear stab vests and no ties :(


Exactly what other situation are you trying to protect against with a lanyard? They are (by design) large enough that you can slip one over your head - so pose virtually no risk of strangling/hanging a conscious wearer.


Someone came up to my colleague, grabbed the unbreakable lanyard and used it to strangle him. Quite simple. Huge risk of death: he passed out. No way could he slip it over his head. I was not speaking of police because I know nothing of them.
John

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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Bonefishblues » 12 Feb 2020, 3:02pm

Bonefishblues wrote:That happened close to me and received local publicity. I elected not to post it here.

... and the direction of the thread is why I elected not to post it here.

Mick F and ano (MJR? Apologies if not) have identified what appears to be a safety issue with child helmet buckles. That's a useful and appropriate outcome I think, and one I'll make use of. The re-hash of a broader debate seems to me to be both unhelpful and verging on disrespectful.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby [XAP]Bob » 12 Feb 2020, 5:56pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:The reality in a custodial setting is that, as far as I know, no attempts to strangle have been made using someone's tie: attempts were made with a lanyard. Our lanyards had the clip behind the neck. You never had your back to a prisoner. Of course, if a prisoner was really set on assault they could do it. But you made it as safe as was possible in most circumstances.


Erm - uniformed police wore clip on ties for decades for exactly this reason (at least that's what they told me as kid, which is now some time ago). Of course they now wear stab vests and no ties :(


Exactly what other situation are you trying to protect against with a lanyard? They are (by design) large enough that you can slip one over your head - so pose virtually no risk of strangling/hanging a conscious wearer.


Someone came up to my colleague, grabbed the unbreakable lanyard and used it to strangle him. Quite simple. Huge risk of death: he passed out. No way could he slip it over his head. I was not speaking of police because I know nothing of them.



So a very limited scenario, I’d have suggested having ID badges clipped to shirts and keys on belt loops rather than a lanyard I could still strangle you with (it might just take two movements).
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Oldjohnw » 12 Feb 2020, 5:59pm

[XAP]Bob wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:
Erm - uniformed police wore clip on ties for decades for exactly this reason (at least that's what they told me as kid, which is now some time ago). Of course they now wear stab vests and no ties :(


Exactly what other situation are you trying to protect against with a lanyard? They are (by design) large enough that you can slip one over your head - so pose virtually no risk of strangling/hanging a conscious wearer.


Someone came up to my colleague, grabbed the unbreakable lanyard and used it to strangle him. Quite simple. Huge risk of death: he passed out. No way could he slip it over his head. I was not speaking of police because I know nothing of them.



So a very limited scenario, I’d have suggested having ID badges clipped to shirts and keys on belt loops rather than a lanyard I could still strangle you with (it might just take two movements).



A limited scenario I agree and never suggested otherwise. I simply mentioned it to illustrate that breakable links were available. I don't know what your reference to keys is all about.
John

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Syd
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Re: Four year old killed by bike helmet.

Postby Syd » 12 Feb 2020, 7:57pm

The son of a former neighbour ended up in intensive care when a car pulled out in front of him on his moped in a 30mph zone.

His helmet was almost certainly not fastened tightly enough as the strap slipped over his chin and his helmet came away from his head. The resultant head injury meant he was in a critical condition for the first 72 hours, though has gone on to make a full recovery, albeit with a metal plate in his head.

It’s a fine line between a helmet staying in place to cover the intended use of the manufacturer and coming away if misused such as the manner in this thread.

It does seem that current designs have some way to go to achieve that.