After 500+ threads...

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
Oldjohnw
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After 500+ threads...

Postby Oldjohnw » 25 Jan 2020, 5:04pm

.....and sometimes multiple pages per thread, I am wondering if:

a) a consensus view will ever be reached, and
b) anyone will be persuaded to a different point of view.

In theory, this should be scientific: in reality, I suspect emotions play a significant part in one's viewpoint.

Please note, this is a very much tongue-in-cheek comment! :D :) :o
John

Mike Sales
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Re: After 500+ threads...

Postby Mike Sales » 25 Jan 2020, 5:07pm

Oldjohnw wrote:b) anyone will be persuaded to a different point of view.



I've known people change their minds. Those with scientific training in assessing evidence.

Oldjohnw
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Re: After 500+ threads...

Postby Oldjohnw » 25 Jan 2020, 5:07pm

Mike Sales wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:b) anyone will be persuaded to a different point of view.



I've known people change their minds. Those with scientific training in assessing evidence.


Probably works both ways!
John

Mike Sales
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Re: After 500+ threads...

Postby Mike Sales » 25 Jan 2020, 5:09pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:b) anyone will be persuaded to a different point of view.



I've known people change their minds. Those with scientific training in assessing evidence.


Probably works both ways!


Not that I have heard of.

Oldjohnw
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Re: After 500+ threads...

Postby Oldjohnw » 25 Jan 2020, 5:14pm

Mike Sales wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
I've known people change their minds. Those with scientific training in assessing evidence.


Probably works both ways!


Not that I have heard of.


I have read of medics insisting on the wearing of helmets.

I am agnostic in this.. But then, as others have indicated, I am a rather ignorant denier of science.
John

Mike Sales
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Re: After 500+ threads...

Postby Mike Sales » 25 Jan 2020, 5:23pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
I have read of medics insisting on the wearing of helmets.

I am agnostic in this.. But then, as others have indicated, I am a rather ignorant denier of science.


Medics are not scientists, and, especially paramedics, adopt the default, "common sense" belief.

Consult Henry Marsh, a cycling neurosurgeon, Malcom Wardlaw researcher with the Transport and Health Group, or Chris Oliver,

But some health professionals and cycling campaigners are warning of the dangers of this "creeping compulsion" in non-competitive, ie non-racing, events.
Chris Oliver, a surgeon at Edinburgh Royal infirmary who has treated cyclists after serious road accidents, said such a rule was "not justified in terms of health and safety".


i.e. a compulsion rule on organised rides.

Oldjohnw
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Re: After 500+ threads...

Postby Oldjohnw » 25 Jan 2020, 5:44pm

I love it. You say that medics are not scientists then quote a medic!

I don't agree with a rule so no-one needs to persuade me of anything. I am not taking a side or promoting a point of view. But I have observed that people on various sides of the argument claim science whilst rejecting the other view.
John

Mike Sales
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Re: After 500+ threads...

Postby Mike Sales » 25 Jan 2020, 5:59pm

Oldjohnw wrote:I love it. You say that medics are not scientists then quote a medic!

I don't agree with a rule so no-one needs to persuade me of anything. I am not taking a side or promoting a point of view. But I have observed that people on various sides of the argument claim science whilst rejecting the other view.


I supposed that you were taking medics as authorities, so I gave you examples of doctors who do not reckon helmets are the panacea.
They are doctors whose jobs are directly relevant to head injuries. Two are cyclists so have a personal interest in cycle helmets.
Higher up the thread you will find my references to two experts whose jobs are directly relevant to assessing evidence. One, indeed, has been appointed specifically to improve public understanding of risk.
They have looked at the science on both sides of the argument and can find no evidence of helmet benefit. They are not on either side.
I recommend a reading of their editorial in the British Medical Journal, it is quite short and a succinct summary of the subject and research relevance. See my link above.

Oldjohnw
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Re: After 500+ threads...

Postby Oldjohnw » 25 Jan 2020, 6:06pm

Thanks for your response.

As I wrote earlier, I am not really looking for evidence either way. That may well make me an ignoramus, but I am not making any demands or claims on others. There are worse things to be called.

What I was observing in my original post is that after thousands of pages, the same arguments are being rehearsed to the same disagreement. Many even with opposite views claim science. Sometimes more heat than light is generated.
John

Mike Sales
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Re: After 500+ threads...

Postby Mike Sales » 25 Jan 2020, 6:15pm

Next time I am told that I should be wearing a helmet I will reply that I am an ignoramus on the subject, but I don't agree that one is needed. How do you think this will be received? Will the ride organisers or cycling club say, fair enough, then you don't need one to ride with us, after all?
I might add that I have never told anybody that they should not wear a helmet.
Do this help you understand why helmet sceptics feel the need to defend their corner.

Oldjohnw
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Re: After 500+ threads...

Postby Oldjohnw » 25 Jan 2020, 6:20pm

I don't really follow your point. I have never told anyone or been told by anyone to either wear or not wear a helmet. If I were I would simply ignore that person.

You appear to be wanting to make yet another thread about the rights and wrongs of this matter. Feel free: I have no ownership of the thread. But I won't be joining in the argument.
John

Mike Sales
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Re: After 500+ threads...

Postby Mike Sales » 25 Jan 2020, 6:34pm

Oldjohnw wrote:I don't really follow your point. I have never told anyone or been told by anyone to either wear or not wear a helmet. If I were I would simply ignore that person.

You appear to be wanting to make yet another thread about the rights and wrongs of this matter. Feel free: I have no ownership of the thread. But I won't be joining in the argument.


I have been told to wear one, and more and more organised rides and cycling clubs insist on helmet wearing. I quite enjoy social rides, but ignoring helmet rules and helmet enthusiasts condemns me to solitary pedalling.
More generally, there are countries with many cyclists, few of who wear helmets, and a low death rate. There are others where most cyclists wear helmets, there are relatively few of them and they have a high death rate.
I think that we need to try to become more like the first group, and not a country where cyclists are lycra-clad road warriors, with a helmet thought essential for safety. Some intrepid young men quite like this image, but it is not the way to increase cycling to an everyday means of transport to school, work or the shops, as it is in more enlightened countries.

Oldjohnw
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Re: After 500+ threads...

Postby Oldjohnw » 25 Jan 2020, 7:31pm

Well, I don't wear lycra, I rarely wear a helmet, I most certainly am not an intrepid young man, I don't go abroad and am a rather grumpy solitary rider.
John

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horizon
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Re: After 500+ threads...

Postby horizon » 25 Jan 2020, 8:36pm

Oldjohnw wrote:.....and sometimes multiple pages per thread, I am wondering if:

a) a consensus view will ever be reached, and
b) anyone will be persuaded to a different point of view.



It is quite an interesting issue. On the one hand, there is the obvious sense of what you have in your hand and then on your head that seems to chime with practical reality. On the other, there are studies and statistics that don't quite bear out the confidence of the former. Then layered on top are the various social controversies such comparison with other groups such as pedestrians and non-racers that don't quite seem to add up. And, to top it all (if you'll excuse the pun), there is the obvious difficulty of running real life tests and comparisons. A lot will depend on where you choose to base your conclusion, without actually being able to prove anything. People get emotional about it because there is pressure to wear one. We might never really know for sure if you should wear a helmet but that doesn't make the discussion pointless.
The experience of travel is something that you have to pay for but can never buy. Ho Ri Zon Chinese philosopher