How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

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The utility cyclist
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Re: How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

Post by The utility cyclist »

pjclinch wrote:In practice, you get good with what you're used to.
When we adopted our son he came with a wee BSO with (by my standards) terrible brakes. But he knew what they'd do and did okay. Christmas rolled around and an Islabikes Beinn 20 appeared c/o Santa with good quality V-brakes. I don't think I've ever heard anyone seriously suggest Isla make rubbish or V-brakes aren't a viable braking technology, but even though on his first ride I cautioned him that the brakes would be a lot more powerful, about 30 seconds later he went over the bars having locked the front wheel...

You can't simply remove the human in charge of the brakes when assessing braking performance on a bike.

Pete.

I've adjusted my grandsons' brakes so as not to have this issue, I would have thought it common sense in all honesty not to put children/inexperienced into significantly unfamiliar situations and mechanical operations that are vastly different to previous, that's just asking for trouble, and yours amongst many are a prime example of that that end up with a bad outcome.

Small increments of change til they get used to things, more so when they are young and have much less ability to grasp boundaries/limits, letting them make mistakes but in a way that is more often than not going to be less pronounced. This is why helmets are such a bad thing for kids (and indeed racing/competitive types), they feel more protected and then go and do more dangerous/riskier stuff and so end up coming a cropper, often followed by helmet saved their lives etc yet the evidence of riding without helmets suggests that that's simply not true, or we'd have thousands of dead child cyclists, tens of thousands of serious injuries to children from cycling and all the other groups of people riding bikes, which just didn't happen.
Steady rider
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Re: How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

Post by Steady rider »

The utility cyclist » 22 Sep 2020, 1:30am asked;
What were the pedestrian outcomes over the same period?

Clarke provided some details in Table 4, overall and serious injuries per million hours dropped by 45%, for cyclists it reduced by 20% and 39%.
http://www.cycle-helmets.com/nz-clarke-2012.pdf
All road users had stronger results than cyclists based on Table 4, 88/91 to 03/07. Cyclists for general injuries increased from 25 to 30 per million hours.
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pjclinch
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Re: How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

Post by pjclinch »

The utility cyclist wrote:
pjclinch wrote:In practice, you get good with what you're used to.
When we adopted our son he came with a wee BSO with (by my standards) terrible brakes. But he knew what they'd do and did okay. Christmas rolled around and an Islabikes Beinn 20 appeared c/o Santa with good quality V-brakes. I don't think I've ever heard anyone seriously suggest Isla make rubbish or V-brakes aren't a viable braking technology, but even though on his first ride I cautioned him that the brakes would be a lot more powerful, about 30 seconds later he went over the bars having locked the front wheel...

You can't simply remove the human in charge of the brakes when assessing braking performance on a bike.


I've adjusted my grandsons' brakes so as not to have this issue, I would have thought it common sense in all honesty not to put children/inexperienced into significantly unfamiliar situations and mechanical operations that are vastly different to previous, that's just asking for trouble, and yours amongst many are a prime example of that that end up with a bad outcome.


We had one bad outcome, which was a very useful learning experience, after which we got up to speed with full power braking very quickly. Which was good, because he now had a bike where he'd need better braking as it was fundamentally better. That was why we got it for him.

The utility cyclist wrote:Small increments of change til they get used to things, more so when they are young and have much less ability to grasp boundaries/limits, letting them make mistakes but in a way that is more often than not going to be less pronounced.


My son was 8 at the time, old enough to learn quickly. Had I done it your way he'd have carried it with rubbish brakes for far longer, and on a bike where the overall performance would have been badly mismatched with the detuned brakes. Or perhaps he'd have liked his Christmas present to be detuned so it was just as crap as the previous one? maybe I should have waited a fortnight before pumping the tyres up properly?

The utility cyclist wrote:This is why helmets are such a bad thing for kids (and indeed racing/competitive types), they feel more protected and then go and do more dangerous/riskier stuff and so end up coming a cropper


Were you ever actually a child? They don't go faster because they feel more protected, thy go faster because they can.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
paddler
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Re: How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

Post by paddler »

pjclinch wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:
pjclinch wrote:In practice, you get good with what you're used to.
When we adopted our son he came with a wee BSO with (by my standards) terrible brakes. But he knew what they'd do and did okay. Christmas rolled around and an Islabikes Beinn 20 appeared c/o Santa with good quality V-brakes. I don't think I've ever heard anyone seriously suggest Isla make rubbish or V-brakes aren't a viable braking technology, but even though on his first ride I cautioned him that the brakes would be a lot more powerful, about 30 seconds later he went over the bars having locked the front wheel...

You can't simply remove the human in charge of the brakes when assessing braking performance on a bike.


I've adjusted my grandsons' brakes so as not to have this issue, I would have thought it common sense in all honesty not to put children/inexperienced into significantly unfamiliar situations and mechanical operations that are vastly different to previous, that's just asking for trouble, and yours amongst many are a prime example of that that end up with a bad outcome.


We had one bad outcome, which was a very useful learning experience, after which we got up to speed with full power braking very quickly. Which was good, because he now had a bike where he'd need better braking as it was fundamentally better. That was why we got it for him.

The utility cyclist wrote:Small increments of change til they get used to things, more so when they are young and have much less ability to grasp boundaries/limits, letting them make mistakes but in a way that is more often than not going to be less pronounced.


My son was 8 at the time, old enough to learn quickly. Had I done it your way he'd have carried it with rubbish brakes for far longer, and on a bike where the overall performance would have been badly mismatched with the detuned brakes. Or perhaps he'd have liked his Christmas present to be detuned so it was just as crap as the previous one? maybe I should have waited a fortnight before pumping the tyres up properly?

The utility cyclist wrote:This is why helmets are such a bad thing for kids (and indeed racing/competitive types), they feel more protected and then go and do more dangerous/riskier stuff and so end up coming a cropper


Were you ever actually a child? They don't go faster because they feel more protected, thy go faster because they can.

Pete.


I'm almost sixty three and still go fast because I can. I bet many do. :D

Dave
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The utility cyclist
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Re: How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

Post by The utility cyclist »

pjclinch wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:
pjclinch wrote:In practice, you get good with what you're used to.
When we adopted our son he came with a wee BSO with (by my standards) terrible brakes. But he knew what they'd do and did okay. Christmas rolled around and an Islabikes Beinn 20 appeared c/o Santa with good quality V-brakes. I don't think I've ever heard anyone seriously suggest Isla make rubbish or V-brakes aren't a viable braking technology, but even though on his first ride I cautioned him that the brakes would be a lot more powerful, about 30 seconds later he went over the bars having locked the front wheel...

You can't simply remove the human in charge of the brakes when assessing braking performance on a bike.


I've adjusted my grandsons' brakes so as not to have this issue, I would have thought it common sense in all honesty not to put children/inexperienced into significantly unfamiliar situations and mechanical operations that are vastly different to previous, that's just asking for trouble, and yours amongst many are a prime example of that that end up with a bad outcome.


We had one bad outcome, which was a very useful learning experience, after which we got up to speed with full power braking very quickly. Which was good, because he now had a bike where he'd need better braking as it was fundamentally better. That was why we got it for him.

The utility cyclist wrote:Small increments of change til they get used to things, more so when they are young and have much less ability to grasp boundaries/limits, letting them make mistakes but in a way that is more often than not going to be less pronounced.


My son was 8 at the time, old enough to learn quickly. Had I done it your way he'd have carried it with rubbish brakes for far longer, and on a bike where the overall performance would have been badly mismatched with the detuned brakes. Or perhaps he'd have liked his Christmas present to be detuned so it was just as crap as the previous one? maybe I should have waited a fortnight before pumping the tyres up properly?

The utility cyclist wrote:This is why helmets are such a bad thing for kids (and indeed racing/competitive types), they feel more protected and then go and do more dangerous/riskier stuff and so end up coming a cropper


Were you ever actually a child? They don't go faster because they feel more protected, thy go faster because they can.

Pete.

Your child luckily had one bad outcome that could have being avoided but wasn't, another time, another place and the outcome is far worse, sorry but chucking children into scenarios like that is irresponsible IMO. That you don't seem to understand the issue is somewhat worrying :shock:
So you don't grasp actual facts + science/human behaviour as to how children and others take greater risks when helmeted/adorning 'PPE'?
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

Post by [XAP]Bob »

The utility cyclist wrote:Your child luckily had one bad outcome that could have being avoided but wasn't, another time, another place and the outcome is far worse, sorry but chucking children into scenarios like that is irresponsible IMO. That you don't seem to understand the issue is somewhat worrying :shock:
So you don't grasp actual facts + science/human behaviour as to how children and others take greater risks when helmeted/adorning 'PPE'?


Pretty much couldn't be directed at someone with *less* grasp...

But given that a newer bike enables faster travel do you detune the brakes, or advise caution.

I'd advise caution and probably encourage a few braking practices at low speed, even stopped, to get the feel, as we all do when we get onto an unfamiliar bike.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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pjclinch
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Re: How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

Post by pjclinch »

The utility cyclist wrote:Your child luckily had one bad outcome that could have being avoided but wasn't, another time, another place and the outcome is far worse, sorry but chucking children into scenarios like that is irresponsible IMO. That you don't seem to understand the issue is somewhat worrying :shock:
So you don't grasp actual facts + science/human behaviour as to how children and others take greater risks when helmeted/adorning 'PPE'?


I actually understand it well, including knowing it works to different degrees in different people, and in cases where people are taking a given level of risk anyway how you can't really take more (for instance, a goal as an unhelmeted youth was to go down Shuttlemead on my paper round as fast as I could possible manage, which I achieved daily. Had I had a helmet on, I wouldn't have managed to go any quicker).
Plus, I don't always look for an angle to make crash helmets be The Ultimate Evil.

[XAP]Bob wrote:But given that a newer bike enables faster travel do you detune the brakes, or advise caution.

I'd advise caution and probably encourage a few braking practices at low speed, even stopped, to get the feel, as we all do when we get onto an unfamiliar bike.


Oh, we did all that. But when push came to shove it's easy to revert, as happened.
But the alternative... the Beinn 20 could easily outperfom the previous BSO in all respects, so were the brakes detuned to the same lack of effect as the old bike, braking from "as fast as possible" would lead to much longer stopping distance. Would that be objectively safer in all respects? I think not.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
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