How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

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Steady rider
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Re: How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

Postby Steady rider » 31 Aug 2020, 7:12pm

I was thinking if you wanted to go into a slide, how would you do it. Very wet conditions and a smooth surface and braking hard on a decent, if it needs a corner and leaning or could it be in a straight line?

https://www.realbuzz.com/articles-inter ... road-bike/

With normal brakes it would be more difficult to brake hard in wet conditions and with disc brakes it looks like they may brake normally, thus having a higher risk of a slide, perhaps. Even with normal brakes occasionally a slide would occur but probably at a slower rate. In event like the TdF where lost of control can lead to serious falls I would like to see some good research on the braking aspects.

It may be fairly easy to research, rider doing say 20 mph, 10 degree slope, wet surface, brake very hard, riders using two bikes - only difference is disc v normal brakes, see how many slide in each group and rate of slide.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

Postby [XAP]Bob » 8 Sep 2020, 9:14am

pjclinch wrote:The thing about all the disc complaints are that discs have been completely normalised in 'cross for a few years and mountain bikes for far longer, so it really looks as if it's resistance to change rather than actual braking issues. The real issues are getting quick wheel changes, particularly from neutral service.

Pete.


that's the overriding issue - Even if you are a minute a stage faster on discs... one puncture and you could lose so much time if you have to wait for a specific service vehicle.
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philg
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Re: How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

Postby philg » 10 Sep 2020, 11:45am

Surely the time taken to replace a disc wheel is no worse than for 'normal' brakes assuming a QR wheel and standardised discs ?

The problem surely is the modern drive towards through-axles, which do take longer to release.
This is undoubtedly driven by the 'fact' that QR axles and disc brakes are not considered safe due to the unwinding forces applied, even with lawyer lips (which again slows the replacement).

I'm sure it's not beyond some bright bod to invent a QR for through axles, assuming they haven't already - I don't have this modern stuff!

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pjclinch
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Re: How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

Postby pjclinch » 10 Sep 2020, 12:48pm

philg wrote:Surely the time taken to replace a disc wheel is no worse than for 'normal' brakes assuming a QR wheel and standardised discs ?


If there was a single standard everyone was using, and if neutral service had disc wheels that conformed to it, yes. However...

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RickH
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Re: How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

Postby RickH » 10 Sep 2020, 4:19pm

pjclinch wrote:
philg wrote:Surely the time taken to replace a disc wheel is no worse than for 'normal' brakes assuming a QR wheel and standardised discs ?


If there was a single standard everyone was using, and if neutral service had disc wheels that conformed to it, yes. However...

Pete.

Are disc wheels are agnostic to the type of through axle. (As long as it is the same diameter & is that standard on road bikes?)

Focus produce a 1/4 turn bayonet fix axle (link) & they say it it is used by other manufacturers under licence (I've not checked who). It seemed like the best of both worlds, at least in concept.

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pjclinch
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Re: How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

Postby pjclinch » 11 Sep 2020, 9:13am

RickH wrote:Are disc wheels are agnostic to the type of through axle. (As long as it is the same diameter & is that standard on road bikes?)


Not sure, but there's also the rotor diameter and thickness to consider. I don't know if they're standardised at all.
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Steady rider
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Re: How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

Postby Steady rider » 11 Sep 2020, 8:26pm

Bicycle Science, 2nd edition, page 196 provide some details on braking. More research into the effects of disc braking may help with understanding the overall effects.

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pjclinch
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Re: How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

Postby pjclinch » 14 Sep 2020, 7:48am

Steady rider wrote:Bicycle Science, 2nd edition, page 196 provide some details on braking. More research into the effects of disc braking may help with understanding the overall effects.


But as with many things, divorcing the brakes from the rider pulling the levers leaves you very sadly lacking in overall picture.

Disc brakes have been completely normalised in 'cross for years and in MTB for well over a decade and on motorcycles for multiple decades. As functional items we know them well enough.

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Re: How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

Postby rmurphy195 » 15 Sep 2020, 7:27pm

UpWrong wrote:It's a hard one. I fell off a couple of weeks ago and banged the side of my helmet on a kerb. But would it have happened if I wasn't wearing a helmet? - a helmet makes your head bigger.


I was hit by a van side-on a few years ago, and my head bounced off the top of the van's windscreen them scraped on the ground when I landed. If I hadn't worn the helmet would the van have driven into me? 'Cos that seems to be the logic of many of these threads.
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Steady rider
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Re: How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

Postby Steady rider » 15 Sep 2020, 7:38pm

The data from NZ suggests the increased accident risk from helmet use is due to extra falls, not extra motor vehicles/cyclist collisions.

profpointy
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Re: How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

Postby profpointy » 15 Sep 2020, 9:36pm

rmurphy195 wrote:
UpWrong wrote:It's a hard one. I fell off a couple of weeks ago and banged the side of my helmet on a kerb. But would it have happened if I wasn't wearing a helmet? - a helmet makes your head bigger.


I was hit by a van side-on a few years ago, and my head bounced off the top of the van's windscreen them scraped on the ground when I landed. If I hadn't worn the helmet would the van have driven into me? 'Cos that seems to be the logic of many of these threads.


Whilst it's easy to mock when put like that, it's nevertheless hard to argue that you're not more likely to hit your head in an accident when head+helmet is a 50 to 100% bigger target

Jdsk
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Re: How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

Postby Jdsk » 15 Sep 2020, 10:10pm

profpointy wrote:... it's nevertheless hard to argue that you're not more likely to hit your head in an accident when head+helmet is a 50 to 100% bigger target

I disagree.

1 How do you get that estimate of increased area? (That's discussed in another thread using increased radius... with some actual measurements.)

2 I wouldn't assume that probability of impact is proportional to area. For example if I'm dropped while upside down and keep my arms by my sides the probability of head impact is about 1 regardless of size.

Jonathan

mikeymo
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Re: How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

Postby mikeymo » 15 Sep 2020, 10:11pm

profpointy wrote:
rmurphy195 wrote:
UpWrong wrote:It's a hard one. I fell off a couple of weeks ago and banged the side of my helmet on a kerb. But would it have happened if I wasn't wearing a helmet? - a helmet makes your head bigger.


I was hit by a van side-on a few years ago, and my head bounced off the top of the van's windscreen them scraped on the ground when I landed. If I hadn't worn the helmet would the van have driven into me? 'Cos that seems to be the logic of many of these threads.


Whilst it's easy to mock when put like that, it's nevertheless hard to argue that you're not more likely to hit your head in an accident when head+helmet is a 50 to 100% bigger target


Doesn't an object in free flight stop when it collides with something? How is something being a couple of inches smaller in radius going to change that?

For your argument to make sense, wouldn't something else have to be struck, stopping the motion, instead of the head, when the head is relatively smaller due to no helmet? Shoulders, maybe?

I'm interested to read the studies supporting this idea. Non helmet wearers suffering less head injuries but more shoulder/torso injuries, type of thing.
Last edited by mikeymo on 15 Sep 2020, 10:20pm, edited 2 times in total.

Jdsk
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Re: How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

Postby Jdsk » 15 Sep 2020, 10:12pm

mikeymo wrote:For you argument to make sense, wouldn't something else have to be struck, stopping the motion, instead of the head, when the head is relatively smaller due to no helmet? Shoulders, maybe?

Yes, same line of thinking.

Jonathan

mikeymo
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Re: How to protect your brain by not wearing a helmet

Postby mikeymo » 15 Sep 2020, 10:22pm

Steady rider wrote:The data from NZ suggests the increased accident risk from helmet use is due to extra falls, not extra motor vehicles/cyclist collisions.


That sounds interesting. Have you got a link to those data please?