Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

For all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmet usage will be moved here.
atoz
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Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 4:50pm

Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby atoz » 14 Jul 2020, 5:30pm

Given the increasing temperature of the masks issue I have to wonder how long it will be before the same sorts of arguments will resurface for helmet compulsion. The issue of risk compensation doesn't seem to get anywhere with masks , in my experience people seem to think they don't need to take social distancing as seriously when they didn't wear a mask- what cycling study does that remind you of? Yet we will soon be in the situation where we can now get ********* in the pub without a mask and to hell with social distancing. But go to the supermarket to buy the same beer and you will need a mask. No prizes for guessing which activity is more risky. You couldn't make it up.

Very few cyclists in my experience accept the effect of risk compensation, so I suspect compulsion for helmets may not be far away. The thought of compulsory helmets and compulsory masks combined is a true horror story. Altogether now , it's only a movie. ..only a movie...

landsurfer
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Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm

Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby landsurfer » 14 Jul 2020, 5:36pm

Muzzles today ... Police in supermarkets tomorrow ..
Cov-1984 is with us .....
The Road Goes On Forever

Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby Jdsk » 14 Jul 2020, 5:37pm

Risk compensation should always be considered as a possibility. But it then needs to be looked for to see if it's happening in the setting of interest. Not assumed because it supports one side of an argument.

Masks and helmets are very different because masks probably protect other people.

Jonathan

Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 14 Jul 2020, 5:41pm

I think the government should have used the original outbreak to enforce cycle helmets. It stands to reason. You have unusually high demand on the NHS resources, you don’t want added pressure from cyclists with the inevitable head injuries sustained if they have an accident without a lid, so that’s a great excuse to make compulsory lid wearing whilst cycling ( on a road at least ) law.

thirdcrank
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby thirdcrank » 14 Jul 2020, 5:44pm

IMO, the comparison is that mask policy in England seems to have been driven completely by checking which way the wind of public opinion is blowing. ie Float the idea and check which way twitter etc react.

The same could so easily be applied to cycle helmets.

atoz
Posts: 405
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 4:50pm

Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby atoz » 14 Jul 2020, 5:47pm

Jdsk wrote:Risk compensation should always be considered as a possibility. But it then needs to be looked for to see if it's happening in the setting of interest. Not assumed because it supports one side of an argument.

Masks and helmets are very different because masks probably protect other people.

Jonathan


Probably, if they are worn correctly, and if people are washing their hands and avoiding touching their face on removal etc. Not holding my breath on that one, based on what I've seen. I don't assume anything, I base my concerns on the WHO evidence, not on politicians grubbing for a quick tabloid headline. Same with helmets.. but I know I am outnumbered these days.

Question- how many people do you know what the difference is between a meta-analysis and a controlled trial? Do you think Boris and his cabinet do? Because if they don't, and we know they won't, that decision on face coverings had nothing to do with the science- and that I fear will do for helmets
Last edited by atoz on 14 Jul 2020, 5:56pm, edited 1 time in total.

landsurfer
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby landsurfer » 14 Jul 2020, 5:49pm

thirdcrank wrote:IMO, the comparison is that mask policy in England seems to have been driven completely by checking which way the wind of public opinion is blowing. ie Float the idea and check which way twitter etc react.

The same could so easily be applied to cycle helmets.


Totally agree .. we are being governed by London Village focus groups ...
The Road Goes On Forever

Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby Jdsk » 14 Jul 2020, 5:51pm

Greenhalgh on masks, both evidence and policy:

"Face masks for the public during the covid-19 crisis"`
https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.m1435

"Face coverings for the public: Laying straw men to rest"
https://doi.org/10.1111/jep.13415

Jonathan

reohn2
Posts: 39724
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby reohn2 » 14 Jul 2020, 5:52pm

Jdsk wrote: .........Masks and helmets are very different because masks probably protect other people.

Jonathan

Agree and according to what I've read in that C19 contamination is air borne so masks are a good tool for stopping the spread,and other virus' too,such as the common cold and influenza.
Not so helmets.

EDITED to add bold type
Last edited by reohn2 on 14 Jul 2020, 6:23pm, edited 1 time in total.
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simonineaston
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Location: Live & work in Briz'l

Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby simonineaston » 14 Jul 2020, 5:54pm

...slightly different concept, in my view. Masks are a way of lowering the likelihood of passing C19 on to others, as part of limiting the spread of a poorly understood, nasty and potentially fatal disease. Using a mask over nose & mouth to protect others is one of the few fairly certain ideas. There's enough eveidence to give it credence. If there's anything I can do to a) lower the possibility albeit already very low here in the south-west (at the mo') of me passing it on to someone else and b) do something that's easy & straightforward to make my fellow shoppers feel safer, I don't mind doing it. It's about helping out, not feeling sulky 'cos I'm being forced to do something I don't want to.
I certainly wouldn't want to end up like the poor sucker in Texas recently, who having been to a C19 Party, caught it and whose last words shortly before croaking were something along the lines of, "Well I guess it wasn't a hoax after-all..."!
ttfn, Simon in Easton
(currently enjoying a Moulton TSR & a nano Brompton...)

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby reohn2 » 14 Jul 2020, 5:56pm

simonineaston wrote:...slightly different concept, in my view. Masks are a way of lowering the likelihood of passing C19 on to others, as part of limiting the spread of a poorly understood, nasty and potentially fatal disease. Using a mask over nose & mouth to protect others is one of the few fairly certain ideas. There's enough eveidence to give it credence. If there's anything I can do to a) lower the possibility albeit already very low here in the south-west (at the mo') of me passing it on to someone else and b) do something that's easy & straightforward to make my fellow shoppers feel safer, I don't mind doing it. It's about helping out, not feeling sulky 'cos I'm being forced to do something I don't want to.
I certainly wouldn't want to end up like the poor sucker in Texas recently, who having been to a C19 Party, caught it and whose last words shortly before croaking were something along the lines of, "Well I guess it wasn't a hoax after-all..."!

Very well put.
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I cycle therefore I am.

reohn2
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby reohn2 » 14 Jul 2020, 6:01pm

Marcus Aurelius wrote:I think the government should have used the original outbreak to enforce cycle helmets. It stands to reason. You have unusually high demand on the NHS resources, you don’t want added pressure from cyclists with the inevitable head injuries sustained if they have an accident without a lid, so that’s a great excuse to make compulsory lid wearing whilst cycling ( on a road at least ) law.

Potentially how many people do you think put an unbearable strain on the NHS by not wearing a cycle helmet?
Now compare that with how many people potentially put the NHS under strain by not wearing a mask in close proximity to others.
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I cycle therefore I am.

atoz
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Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 4:50pm

Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby atoz » 14 Jul 2020, 6:05pm

Jdsk wrote:Greenhalgh on masks, both evidence and policy:

"Face masks for the public during the covid-19 crisis"`
https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.m1435

"Face coverings for the public: Laying straw men to rest"
https://doi.org/10.1111/jep.13415

Jonathan


Let's all hit the pub and get the beers in then...buy that straw man a brown and bitter- mine's a stout with a covid-19 chaser please, or maybe a nice gassy lager, just the thing to loosen the nasal passages..

Oldjohnw
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Location: Northumberland

Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby Oldjohnw » 14 Jul 2020, 6:05pm

I cannot see any comparison between helmets (which are not in any circumstance compulsory in the UK) and wearing masks to stop the spread of a particular virulent and nasty disease which kills horribly. Ok, we don't know as much as we would like to know about how it spreads but who wants that risk?
John

Mike Sales
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby Mike Sales » 14 Jul 2020, 6:06pm

atoz wrote:
Very few cyclists in my experience accept the effect of risk compensation, so I suspect compulsion for helmets may not be far away. The thought of compulsory helmets and compulsory masks combined is a true horror story. Altogether now , it's only a movie. ..only a movie...


Risk homeostasis (a more accurate name for risk compensation) seems basic common sense to me.
If you see more danger in a situation you change your behaviour to keep the danger at a level acceptable to you.
Life is full of risk and it is impossible to avoid it completely and still function in this world.
Many helmet wearers say that they would not go cycling without a helmet. What is this but risk compensation? They believe that a helmet keeps the risk down to a level acceptable to them, but surely admit that the hat does not eliminate risk

I can think of a few cyclists who are more at risk on the road with a helmet than I am without!

Read Wilde or Adams on the subject.