Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

For all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmet usage will be moved here.
fastpedaller
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby fastpedaller » 14 Jul 2020, 10:58pm

Jdsk wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:Remember also that there was a World shortage of face coverings a couple of months ago, the availability has now improved so it's more feasible to suggest/mandate usage.

I don't think that the delayed recommendation in England was caused by a shortage of masks.

Jonathan

I agree with you in the main - the rhetoric was that 2m distancing is effective, and folk in masks were less likely to keep the distance. The availability of masks (or priority to NHS and Care Homes) could have been a factor. With people now getting closer (because of more mobility/boredom with keeping to distancing) it is almost impossible to keep to 2m so it makes sense to introduce masks where possible.

irc
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby irc » 14 Jul 2020, 11:04pm

Jdsk wrote:That means that a lot of patients suffered from not getting appropriate care. And that the backlog is enormous. And of course the capacity is much lower than before the outbreak.


Correct, cancer deaths up in Scotland during Covid.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/lock ... 0-22341548

Anecdottally I know of dozens of patients who received a home visit from a GP for various ailments, the GP wished to admit them to hospital, but they refused to go because of fear of covid.

fastpedaller
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby fastpedaller » 14 Jul 2020, 11:08pm

On the 'risk compensation' theme, the worry I have is the belief that many 'normal folk' and some here (MA?) have a belief that a helmet 'will mean the rider is protected' leading to drivers doing even closer passes and taking more risks with cyclists' lives. I have worked in the Auto Industry and have even heard fellow Engineers say such rubbish as 'the ABS should have stopped me, even on ice' - people who should know better that the Laws of Physics are exactly that. Given that those with knowledge of the limitation of such technology sadly rely on it to get them out of trouble gives me little hope that the average man in the street is competent to be behind the wheel of a modern car with 'automatic assistance' gadgets.

PH
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby PH » 15 Jul 2020, 1:27am

Mike Sales wrote:seems basic common sense to me.
If you see more danger in a situation you change your behaviour to keep the danger at a level acceptable to you.

How does that apply to masks?
It's generally understood that any benefit they provide is in the reduced likelihood of an infected person person spreading that to others. Isn't that the opposite to the helmet wearer who thinks they're protecting themselves?

Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 15 Jul 2020, 7:02am

reohn2 wrote:
Marcus Aurelius wrote:I think the government should have used the original outbreak to enforce cycle helmets. It stands to reason. You have unusually high demand on the NHS resources, you don’t want added pressure from cyclists with the inevitable head injuries sustained if they have an accident without a lid, so that’s a great excuse to make compulsory lid wearing whilst cycling ( on a road at least ) law.

Potentially how many people do you think put an unbearable strain on the NHS by not wearing a cycle helmet?
Now compare that with how many people potentially put the NHS under strain by not wearing a mask in close proximity to others.


As much as a single one, is one too many. Wear a lid whilst cycling, protect the N.H.S. Save lives, should be the new ‘mantra‘.

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pjclinch
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby pjclinch » 15 Jul 2020, 8:11am

Marcus Aurelius wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Marcus Aurelius wrote:I think the government should have used the original outbreak to enforce cycle helmets. It stands to reason. You have unusually high demand on the NHS resources, you don’t want added pressure from cyclists with the inevitable head injuries sustained if they have an accident without a lid, so that’s a great excuse to make compulsory lid wearing whilst cycling ( on a road at least ) law.

Potentially how many people do you think put an unbearable strain on the NHS by not wearing a cycle helmet?
Now compare that with how many people potentially put the NHS under strain by not wearing a mask in close proximity to others.


As much as a single one, is one too many. Wear a lid whilst cycling, protect the N.H.S. Save lives, should be the new ‘mantra‘.


Well your problem there is the unintended side effects. Piet de Jong has done quite a bit of work to work out the actual cost benefit of helmets, including in to the health budget, and they come out negative no matter how optimistic you are about their effectiveness at preventing injury.

Quoting the conclusion to the Annex in Tim Gill's cycling and children and young people (note that Gill was originally writing about children hence the specific references to them, but the basics don't actually change when you look at adults),

The cycle helmet debate shows the dramatic power of real life events in shaping our understanding of causality. Tragedies happen; child cyclists are killed or left disabled for life; and we cannot let go of the belief that something could and should have been done to stop that particular event from happening – especially when that something is so simple as wearing a helmet. We find it hard to accept that the helmet may have made no difference. We find it harder to accept that encouraging or forcing children to wear helmets might also encourage them to ride in a more dangerous way and paradoxically to increase the risk that they will suffer an accident. And we find it much harder to accept that compulsory helmet use might put children off cycling altogether, leaving them less physically active, and – many years later – more likely to die of heart disease. Think of all the uncertainty behind that line of argument, compared with the seeming rock-solid conviction that a helmet could have saved that particular child’s life, at that particular time.


You've got the "rock solid conviction" bit, but what you don't seem to appreciate is the complexity of the bigger picture. Even something as copper-bottomed seeming as car seat belts aren't the clear win people assume (read "Risk" by John Adams and "Death on the Streets" by Robert Davis, both now available as free downloads).

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...

reohn2
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby reohn2 » 15 Jul 2020, 8:17am

Marcus Aurelius wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Marcus Aurelius wrote:I think the government should have used the original outbreak to enforce cycle helmets. It stands to reason. You have unusually high demand on the NHS resources, you don’t want added pressure from cyclists with the inevitable head injuries sustained if they have an accident without a lid, so that’s a great excuse to make compulsory lid wearing whilst cycling ( on a road at least ) law.

Potentially how many people do you think put an unbearable strain on the NHS by not wearing a cycle helmet?
Now compare that with how many people potentially put the NHS under strain by not wearing a mask in close proximity to others.


As much as a single one, is one too many. Wear a lid whilst cycling, protect the N.H.S. Save lives, should be the new ‘mantra‘.

You didn't answer the question.

I'm not asking you not to wear a helmet,so if you don't mind please don't ever think you have the right to tell me or anyone else to wear one,however much you might think wearing one is a magic passport to injury free cycling.
You're wrong in your overall assumptions on helmets and right to tell others what to wear.
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landsurfer
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby landsurfer » 15 Jul 2020, 9:03am

I'm recovering ( well ) from my latest "off" ... injured my hip last time, injured my humerus this time .... 5 yrs between crashes ... only me involved ...
A helmet would have been absolutely no use at all ... It may have even made things worse on my last off as it could have caused a rotational spinal injury ... i landed on my shoulder ...
So i don't wear a helmet and am not about to start .... risk compensation ....
"There will come a day, when all the lies will collapse under their own weight, and truth will again triumph." Guess Who ...
The Road Goes On Forever

Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 15 Jul 2020, 9:15am

reohn2 wrote:
Marcus Aurelius wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Potentially how many people do you think put an unbearable strain on the NHS by not wearing a cycle helmet?
Now compare that with how many people potentially put the NHS under strain by not wearing a mask in close proximity to others.


As much as a single one, is one too many. Wear a lid whilst cycling, protect the N.H.S. Save lives, should be the new ‘mantra‘.

You didn't answer the question.

I'm not asking you not to wear a helmet,so if you don't mind please don't ever think you have the right to tell me or anyone else to wear one,however much you might think wearing one is a magic passport to injury free cycling.
You're wrong in your overall assumptions on helmets and right to tell others what to wear.


We’ll see if the law eventually says otherwise soon enough.

reohn2
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby reohn2 » 15 Jul 2020, 9:17am

Marcus Aurelius wrote:We’ll see if the law eventually says otherwise soon enough.

Will we?

And you still haven't answered the question :?
Last edited by reohn2 on 15 Jul 2020, 9:18am, edited 2 times in total.
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Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 15 Jul 2020, 9:18am

reohn2 wrote:
Marcus Aurelius wrote:We’ll see if the law eventually says otherwise soon enough.

Will we?

Hopefully.

reohn2
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby reohn2 » 15 Jul 2020, 9:21am

Marcus Aurelius wrote:Hopefully.

You hope for helmet compulsion?
Here's my proclamation and you can hold me to it.
If helmet wearing becomes compulsory in the UK I'll become a criminal overnight and I suspect so will a lot of other people.
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Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 15 Jul 2020, 9:37am

reohn2 wrote:
Marcus Aurelius wrote:Hopefully.

You hope for helmet compulsion?
Here's my proclamation and you can hold me to it.
If helmet wearing becomes compulsory in the UK I'll become a criminal overnight and I suspect so will a lot of other people.

It’s one way of filling the hole in our economy left by this whole Corona virus disaster I suppose. They just need to make sure the fines for non compliance are hefty enough, and enforced rigorously.

reohn2
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby reohn2 » 15 Jul 2020, 9:51am

Marcus Aurelius wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Marcus Aurelius wrote:Hopefully.

You hope for helmet compulsion?
Here's my proclamation and you can hold me to it.
If helmet wearing becomes compulsory in the UK I'll become a criminal overnight and I suspect so will a lot of other people.

It’s one way of filling the hole in our economy left by this whole Corona virus disaster I suppose. They just need to make sure the fines for non compliance are hefty enough, and enforced rigorously.

I'm sorry but I don't follow your logic in how helmet compulsion will help the economy,perhaps you could explain.
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Oldjohnw
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby Oldjohnw » 15 Jul 2020, 10:18am

Wondering how flogging a few helmets will make up s multi billion economy drop. Unless I am being more usually thick.
John