Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

For all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmet usage will be moved here.
Oldjohnw
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Location: Northumberland

Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby Oldjohnw » 15 Jul 2020, 10:18am

Wondering how flogging a few helmets will make up s multi billion economy drop. Unless I am being more usually thick.
John

Tangled Metal
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby Tangled Metal » 15 Jul 2020, 10:39am

Our son broke his arm falling off his bike once. Got up and rode it back to the car, say in the car for 20 minutes drive home via chippy, ate his chips then asked to go to hospital. Once at hospital and the registrar had seen the x-rays he asked if he was wearing a helmet. No he wasn't. That guy a telling off and a comment that we took as meaning the doctor believed a helmet would have stopped him getting a broken arm!! I so wanted to give him a bit of abuse for that but asked if he should be be wearing one on each elbow instead.

If educated and supposedly intelligent scientists like doctors are unable to think for themselves about helmets then what hope is there for anybody else?!!!!!

As far as masks goes, people can't think for themselves. IMHO the mask debate really centres on how much benefit it provides? I think it's accepted there's some benefits there. I took the view initially that distancing was working in that people kept apart by 1-2m. Good enough for me. After numerous press leaks and conferences people have taken the message as things are getting better so distancing isn't as important I think. In the supermarket and shops that seems to mean no sufficient distancing is adhered to. The fact that they could distance didn't mean they actually did it. So shops have become as bad as public transport I reckon. So before this last leak/announcement I had already made my own assessment to wear masks inside shops.

The mass public are often sheeple without the ability to make reasoned risk assessments for themselves. Or aren't showing it. They need to be told they have to wear masks before they do.

As to risk compensation, I did that with my first helmet at 16. I started going faster down from the hill I lived on. I then kept the speed when I didn't wear my helmet because I liked the speed and was young. Now my speed and behaviours in a bike is no different whether helmet or no helmet is being worn. My behaviour with a mask is the same as without it. I still distance myself and wash my hands. I still need to protect myself but the mask is about others and I believe the more people wearing them by choice the more you'll see people discussing it and making their own decisions.

The fourth time I wore a mask and the first time local to me I overheard a family of a woman with her daughters talk about getting and wearing masks. Conclusion was that had some on order and as soon as they came in they'd start wearing them, except the eldest daughter, a teenager and rebel!! That was before the announcement and prior leak. It's this discussion that I think should have happened months ago. I think mask wearing in shops should have been from lockdown not just now.

Jdsk
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby Jdsk » 15 Jul 2020, 10:45am

Tangled Metal wrote:Our son broke his arm falling off his bike once. Got up and rode it back to the car, say in the car for 20 minutes drive home via chippy, ate his chips then asked to go to hospital. Once at hospital and the registrar had seen the x-rays he asked if he was wearing a helmet. No he wasn't. That guy a telling off and a comment that we took as meaning the doctor believed a helmet would have stopped him getting a broken arm!! I so wanted to give him a bit of abuse for that but asked if he should be be wearing one on each elbow instead.

If educated and supposedly intelligent scientists like doctors are unable to think for themselves about helmets then what hope is there for anybody else?!!!!!

I wouldn't conclude that because that doctor came to a different conclusion from you that he wasn't thinking for himself.

Of course the doctor didn't think that wearing a helmet would avoid a broken arm. But it's widely believed that advice given in EDs may be effective in reducing further visits. You might not like the advice on this occasion on this topic but we teach medical students and doctors to always take that opportunity to educate.

Jonathan

Tangled Metal
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby Tangled Metal » 15 Jul 2020, 10:57am

Erm! The doctor said that if our son had been wearing a helmet he wouldn't have needed the hospital visit. I think he used whatever the current term to A&E is but basically those were his words. If he didn't actually mean it why put that safety message that way? I understand that there are procedures and records. That advice given even if irrelevant to the injury could help prevent further inquiries and hospital visits. However there are better ways to give the message than saying a helmet would have prevented a broken arm surely?

Of course the data now includes our son as having been injured whilst riding a bike and not wearing a helmet. Effectively contributing towards dubious safety conclusions over helmet wearing. That doctor's choice of words and advice together with the data likely to be populated by similar cases to our son's only goes to convince me that the helmet debate is pointless. Shoot data in equals shoot conclusions out and intelligent people believe illogical things too.

reohn2
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby reohn2 » 15 Jul 2020, 11:08am

The problem with masks/face coverings and the whole virus scenario is that we're being governed by idiots who can't even agree amonst themselves on a united and sound policy for fighting it.
Their advise is mixed at best and totally and utterly shambolic dangerously stupid and completely confusing at worst! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

When the health of the nation physically,mentally and economically is at stake this bunch of idiots rate out of 10, - 1000000000000.

You couldn't wish for a worse case scenario of Brexit and the C19 crisis to be handled by a worse government of incompetents.
The whole situation beggars belief!

With that backdrop(huge and imminent),we now have someone apparently suggesting helmet compulsion will save the nation :?
Last edited by reohn2 on 15 Jul 2020, 11:09am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cyril Haearn
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby Cyril Haearn » 15 Jul 2020, 11:09am

@r2
'nothing is so good that it cannot get better, nothing is so bad that it cannot get worse'
I believe things could get much worse under the bojo regime :?
..
One imagines that many of this parish know more about helmut issues than doctors who have studied for years. A doctor, a 'general' practitioner, has a bit of knowledge of many different complaints

Someone who has actually had a disease and read and researched about it could know much more than their gp
Last edited by Cyril Haearn on 15 Jul 2020, 11:12am, edited 1 time in total.
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reohn2
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby reohn2 » 15 Jul 2020, 11:11am

Cyril Haearn wrote:One imagines that many of this parish know more about helmuts than doctors who have studied for years. A doctor, a 'general' practitioner, has a bit of knowledge of many different complaints

Someone who has actually had a disease and read and researched about it could know much more than their gp


How does a doctor who doesn't cycle know more about the wffectiveness of hlmets than someone who cycles regularly?
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Cyril Haearn
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby Cyril Haearn » 15 Jul 2020, 11:13am

reohn2 wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:One imagines that many of this parish know more about helmuts than doctors who have studied for years. A doctor, a 'general' practitioner, has a bit of knowledge of many different complaints

Someone who has actually had a disease and read and researched about it could know much more than their gp


How does a doctor who doesn't cycle know more about the wffectiveness of hlmets than someone who cycles regularly?

We are agreeing actually, docs know less
Entertainer, intellectual, idealist, PoB, 60097
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we hate bullies

reohn2
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby reohn2 » 15 Jul 2020, 11:20am

Cyril Haearn wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:One imagines that many of this parish know more about helmuts than doctors who have studied for years. A doctor, a 'general' practitioner, has a bit of knowledge of many different complaints

Someone who has actually had a disease and read and researched about it could know much more than their gp


How does a doctor who doesn't cycle know more about the wffectiveness of hlmets than someone who cycles regularly?

We are agreeing actually, docs know less

Point taken,not for the first time today I've misread a post,apologies.
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Jdsk
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby Jdsk » 15 Jul 2020, 11:22am

reohn2 wrote:How does a doctor who doesn't cycle know more about the wffectiveness of hlmets than someone who cycles regularly?

Knowledge management is an enormous problem in medicine. The state of the art is to be aware of the level of evidence that supports your decisions. (You often still have to take decisions when the level of evidence is low.) This will eventually be part of the threshold for negligence when something like Bolitho replaces Bolam.

For doctors working in England and Wales that would include NICE Guidance.

Jonathan

reohn2
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby reohn2 » 15 Jul 2020, 11:29am

Cyril Haearn wrote:@r2
'nothing is so good that it cannot get better, nothing is so bad that it cannot get worse'
I believe things could get much worse under the bojo regime :?


I often wonder just how bad things have to get before the UK population begin to realise just utterly bad the country has been governed these past ten years.
The past 7months governing has dropped of a cliff taking the rest of us with it!
I shudder to think of the future the way we being lead!*

*Lead is an interesting word as it could mean lead as in leader leading,or it could mean leaded as a heavy non ferrous metal that can with over exposure dull the brain significantly :? Hmmmm........
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reohn2
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby reohn2 » 15 Jul 2020, 11:40am

Jdsk wrote:
reohn2 wrote:How does a doctor who doesn't cycle know more about the wffectiveness of hlmets than someone who cycles regularly?

Knowledge management is an enormous problem in medicine. The state of the art is to be aware of the level of evidence that supports your decisions. (You often still have to take decisions when the level of evidence is low.) This will eventually be part of the threshold for negligence when something like Bolitho replaces Bolam.

For doctors working in England and Wales that would include NICE Guidance.

Jonathan

Taking this in context,the post was connected to TM's experience with an A&E doctor who on examining TM's son for a broken arm due to him falling from his bike asked about head protection.
Should TM have answered in the affirmative that his son was wearing a helmet,he no doubt would've received a pat on the head for being a good father,OTOH he was looked down on.
Whereas if his son had a black eye and grazed skull one could understand the doctor's concern.

EDIT:- story alert:-
Playing cricket some time ago we had on the team a young lad 16 and an experienced cricketer.
Fielding at third man he attempted a catch that went though his hands and hit him on the forehead causing a nasty bruise and egg,needing a trip to A&E.
I don't think he was asked if he was wearing a helmet and I don't think anyone fielding that far out wears a helmet in today's game does.
Point being that we can wrap people of any age up in cottonwool to protect them but they'll remain that way unless they choose otherwise.Life itself is a risk,somepeople take that risk to the n'th degree whilst others suffer any and all risk phobias.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby Tangled Metal » 15 Jul 2020, 12:44pm

Just looked up NICE guidance on childhood arm fracture treatment following cycling accident. It says lack of helmet is the cause in most cases so look down your nose at the parent if a non helmet wearing, injured child. Then lecture the parent through a conversation with the child.

It seems I was wrong in my hasty judgement of that registrar in A&E. If I ever see him again I must remember to apologise. :lol:

Seriously though, common sense isn't universal and I think most doctors can't seem to give up an opportunity to lecture a patient. I think it was more a case of taking advantage of an opportunity to repeat helmet doctrine in a stupid or clumsy way. Otherwise a friendly and nice Italian doctor.

Cyril Haearn
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby Cyril Haearn » 15 Jul 2020, 1:02pm

Cricket with or without a helmut is very dangerous, why is it allowed?
Entertainer, intellectual, idealist, PoB, 60097
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Masks today, helmets tomorrow?

Postby Tangled Metal » 15 Jul 2020, 1:12pm

What would happen if the doctors treating boxers asked if they were wearing a helmet? A sport where damage to your brain is part of the appeal to its fans doesn't get the same calls for helmet wearing that cycling does. It's this inconsistency in people's attitudes to sports that is also stupid. If doctors took more time trying to change sports that don't help they're own participants instead of ones that take a more responsible approach there would be probably be less harm caused in sport. Things like ending the heading of a football, stricter concussion rules in contact sports, etc. Then again I can't imagine boxing surviving a no head shots rule somehow but that's the only safe way for boxing I'd have thought.

Sorry, off topic.