Advice on Helmets, again (was price vs quality)

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Ianwhitwell
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Joined: 13 May 2020, 10:31pm

Advice on Helmets, again (was price vs quality)

Post by Ianwhitwell »

Moderator note: split from viewtopic.php?f=1&t=138134

Hi all, I'm a relatively recent returnee to cycling and I have to admit I always wear a helmet and gloves, and strangely free not quite dressed if I don't have them on. Whilst I entirely support the right of those who choose not to wear helmets, the right not to do so, I have found this whole thread very disturbing as a relatively 'new' and inexperienced member. I understand now, there are those with borderline evangelical views either way on this matter. However, it seems to me, if I ask for some advice on the purchase of a helmet, that's what I should be offered, not peoples views on my decision, since that's none of their business. If they view me as the devil's spawn, who's capitulated to the 'capitalist advertising lie' for my choice, that's their right in a free society, but I would humbly suggest they simply pass over the post, as the title makes it clear what the OP wants to know about. Best wishes all :D
Last edited by Ianwhitwell on 16 Mar 2021, 10:14pm, edited 1 time in total.
dinnydom
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Joined: 5 Oct 2020, 11:06pm

Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by dinnydom »

Your post is a breath of fresh air .Sadly there will always be nutters around as Nigel Farage might say to Boris .
Mike Sales
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Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by Mike Sales »

dinnydom wrote:Your post is a breath of fresh air .Sadly there will always be nutters around as Nigel Farage might say to Boris .


David Spiegelhalter, Ben Goldacre and Chris Boardman amongst them?

I hope you don't ignore Spiegelhalter's advice on Covid too.
Last edited by Mike Sales on 18 Mar 2021, 3:55pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Steady rider
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Joined: 4 Jan 2009, 4:31pm

Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by Steady rider »

The price part seems relatively easy to assess perhaps. The quality part is more difficult to assess without a lot of testing I expect. The weight is perhaps an indication of some functions, strength perhaps. A list of helmets v price v weight v other aspects. https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/buyers ... e-helmets/ £50 to £60 minimum
How much is opinions and how much is based on proper assessing?

https://www.google.com/search?q=Adli+bi ... e&ie=UTF-8
£10 minimum
which is better and by how much?
Jdsk
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Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by Jdsk »

Ianwhitwell wrote:However, it seems to me, if I ask for some advice on the purchase of a helmet, that's what I should be offered, not peoples views on my decision, since that's none of their business.

Sounds reasonable to me.

And if anyone simply can't restrain themselves I prefer to see a hyperlink to their views *somewhere else in the forum rather than anything else. That minimises the damage to the thread.

Jonathan

* Of which there are probably many instances.
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by Jdsk »

Mike Sales wrote:David Spiegelhalter, Ben Goldacre and Chris Boardman amongst them?

In the unlikely possibility of anyone not knowing already:
https://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f3817.full

Jonathan
Mike Sales
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Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by Mike Sales »

Jdsk wrote:
Ianwhitwell wrote:However, it seems to me, if I ask for some advice on the purchase of a helmet, that's what I should be offered, not peoples views on my decision, since that's none of their business.

Sounds reasonable to me.


Jonathan



The deviation from the topic was initiated this time by Ian Whitwell and donnydom. As was the unforum-friendly language.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Steady rider
Posts: 2749
Joined: 4 Jan 2009, 4:31pm

Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by Steady rider »

https://www.roadbikerider.com/list-of-b ... et-brands/
How many makes?

https://www.roadbikerider.com/best-of-t ... iple-labs/

There is still no consensus that the Virginia Tech formula for rating helmets for concussion correlates with reduced concussions. However, “since established standards organizations have not responded to concussion concerns, these ratings represent a good start at testing helmets systematically for lower-level and rotational impact performance,”


Is this valid?
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by [XAP]Bob »

However, it seems to me, if I ask for some advice on the purchase of a helmet, that's what I should be offered, not peoples views on my decision, since that's none of their business.


One option is to *not* buy a helmet. If I asked you about buying a chocolate fireguard, I'd be disappointed if people didn't point out that it was likely of very little use.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Jdsk
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Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by Jdsk »

[XAP]Bob wrote:
However, it seems to me, if I ask for some advice on the purchase of a helmet, that's what I should be offered, not peoples views on my decision, since that's none of their business.

One option is to *not* buy a helmet. If I asked you about buying a chocolate fireguard, I'd be disappointed if people didn't point out that it was likely of very little use.

The analogy doesn't hold. We all know that there are people strongly in favour of wearing helmets and people strongly against, and the topic has been debated many times. That doesn't apply to the use of chocolate fireguards.

Jonathan
Steady rider
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Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by Steady rider »

The quality of a product could be judged in several ways, how well manufactured, how effective, materials used, how safe to use perhaps. If something is made really well but has social and safety aspects, should they be told.

With cycle helmets, there are tests but not related to rider stability, consumers/manufacturers decide what is suitable. If someone is spending x pounds and seeks advice, should they be told for example, The European Cycling
Federation stated that "… the evidence from Australia and New Zealand suggests that the wearing of
helmets might even make cycling more dangerous".?

Should they be told that they will likely incur a higher accident rate and a higher impact to the helmet compared to a bare head?

If a personal conversation and they say I have made my mind up and only want to know which helmet to buy then it could depend on there type of cycling and what they actual want, is this only injury prevention, looks, comfort or other requirements.

If you want advice why not listen to all sides and points of view, even if you do not agree?
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by Jdsk »

Steady rider wrote:If you want advice why not listen to all sides and points of view, even if you do not agree?

Because it has been repeatedly demonstrated that the thread then moves on to the question of wearing helmets at all, which is not what the OP was asking.

But if anyone feels that they have to discuss this it's much more constructive to link to another thread where that can be continued, leaving the original thread for people who are trying help the OP with the question that was actually asked.

Jonathan
Steady rider
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Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by Steady rider »

Perhaps any discussion about prices and quality needs to consider the wider issue of the overall value of a product. One person may ask the initial question but many people may read the thread. If there are reasonable concerns about the product itself, then it seems reasonable for people to highlight their concerns, even if this does not match the question asked. This approach fosters a wider discussion and may be informative and for those wishing to offer precise advice on price or quality they can also do so.
As an example see,
In 2020 a Canadian report , ‘Bicycling-related concussions leading to postconcussion syndrome in adults’, details ‘The mean duration of PCS for helmet wearers was 22.9 months, and 16.8 months for patients not wearing a helmet at the time of concussion (p=0.41)’. this suggests that helmet use may have long term unexpected consequences.
https://bmjopensem.bmj.com/content/bmjo ... 6.full.pdf

Which helmets had the longest PCS? how much do they cost? Discussions on quality and price may be more meaningful if the data is provided.
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by Jdsk »

Cherrypicking and posting one particular study on this complex issue makes my point very effectively.

Jonathan
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Jdsk wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:
However, it seems to me, if I ask for some advice on the purchase of a helmet, that's what I should be offered, not peoples views on my decision, since that's none of their business.

One option is to *not* buy a helmet. If I asked you about buying a chocolate fireguard, I'd be disappointed if people didn't point out that it was likely of very little use.

The analogy doesn't hold. We all know that there are people strongly in favour of wearing helmets and people strongly against, and the topic has been debated many times. That doesn't apply to the use of chocolate fireguards.

Jonathan



The analogy holds perfectly well. The vast majority of people haven’t considered that helmets might be of ~ zero net benefit - because all the advertising suggests they are essential (whilst completely failing to suggest any safety benefit).
I very nearly said teapot instead of fire guard, because there was a working chocolate teapot made a few years back. But felt that the more traditional “useless item” would be easier for readers.

I can’t recall whether they also made a fire guard.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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