Advice on Helmets, again (was price vs quality)

For all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmet usage will be moved here.
Jdsk
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Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by Jdsk »

[XAP]Bob wrote:
Jdsk wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:One option is to *not* buy a helmet. If I asked you about buying a chocolate fireguard, I'd be disappointed if people didn't point out that it was likely of very little use.

The analogy doesn't hold. We all know that there are people strongly in favour of wearing helmets and people strongly against, and the topic has been debated many times. That doesn't apply to the use of chocolate fireguards.

The analogy holds perfectly well. The vast majority of people haven’t considered that helmets might be of ~ zero net benefit - because all the advertising suggests they are essential (whilst completely failing to suggest any safety benefit).
I very nearly said teapot instead of fire guard, because there was a working chocolate teapot made a few years back. But felt that the more traditional “useless item” would be easier for readers.

As I said before there are people strongly in favour and people strongly against. Your analogy is invalid because it starts by ridiculing one view... how could anyone sensibly advocate what you describe as a useless item?

What sort of discussion do you expect to follow when you start with ridicule?

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by Jdsk »

[XAP]Bob wrote:The vast majority of people haven’t considered that helmets might be of ~ zero net benefit - because all the advertising suggests they are essential (whilst completely failing to suggest any safety benefit).

I very much doubt that that is the case in this forum.

But even if it is are you advocating that the debate be carried out in every thread as soon as it contains any mention of helmets?

Much better to have it in another thread and link to it.

Jonathan
mikeymo
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Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by mikeymo »

Jdsk wrote:The analogy doesn't hold. We all know that there are people strongly in favour of wearing helmets and people strongly against, and the topic has been debated many times. That doesn't apply to the use of chocolate fireguards.

Jonathan


I think we should start though.
ymfb
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Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by ymfb »

Like many things in life, comfort and fit are the most important considerations. Personally I spent £600 on my motorcycle helmet and it’s a minefield getting the best one. But I found even with the same brand some helmets did not fit.

When I started cycling again I used a similar exercise, not considering cost, but comfort alone. I bought a Bell that was ok, later I bought a cheaper helmet in Halfords when I forgot mine on holiday. When they got tatty I bought a Kask, which was a better fit, this broke commuting when the adjustable collar became entangled in my rucksack. The latest is a Kask Mojito X Road Helmet and in my opinion the best so far and at £95 I see as good value.

Despite all the rhetoric, I have a friend who had a low speed spill when another cyclist bumped into her, the Paramedic and A & E consultant both said her helmet saved her from catastrophic brain injury. No further proof needed for normal thinking people.

My advice is go to a shop or several and try as many as possible till you get what fits best.
Two wheels preferred.
Mike Sales
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Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by Mike Sales »

hovding-3afterfemale.jpg


The Hovding gets good ratings and is reassuringly expensive.

Hövding’s airbag for cyclists beats all other cycling helmets in independent safety test
The crash-activated airbag for cyclists received independent tester Certimoov’s protection rating of 4.5 stars, while no other cycling helmet received more than 4


https://road.cc/content/tech-news/safety-tests-reveal-hovding-airbag-superior-helmets-282023
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Jdsk
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Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by Jdsk »

ymfb wrote:Like many things in life, comfort and fit are the most important considerations. Personally I spent £600 on my motorcycle helmet and it’s a minefield getting the best one. But I found even with the same brand some helmets did not fit.

...

My advice is go to a shop or several and try as many as possible till you get what fits best.

Yes, fit is both important and difficult.

It's hard enough at the best of times, and if anyone knows of suppliers who have helpful approaches during the outbreak it would be helpful to share the information.

Jonathan
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Jdsk wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:
Jdsk wrote:The analogy doesn't hold. We all know that there are people strongly in favour of wearing helmets and people strongly against, and the topic has been debated many times. That doesn't apply to the use of chocolate fireguards.

The analogy holds perfectly well. The vast majority of people haven’t considered that helmets might be of ~ zero net benefit - because all the advertising suggests they are essential (whilst completely failing to suggest any safety benefit).
I very nearly said teapot instead of fire guard, because there was a working chocolate teapot made a few years back. But felt that the more traditional “useless item” would be easier for readers.

As I said before there are people strongly in favour and people strongly against. Your analogy is invalid because it starts by ridiculing one view... how could anyone sensibly advocate what you describe as a useless item?

What sort of discussion do you expect to follow when you start with ridicule?

Jonathan



Ok - then, a chocolate teapot:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-y ... e-29126161

The analogy is sound, you just don't like it.
It was deliberately "obvious", that's the whole point of a decent analogy. The fact that there are a large, vocal, body of people who actively ignore evidence isn't all that common in most walks of life - and there is no way I wanted to open up a debate on masks, or global warming.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by [XAP]Bob »

ymfb wrote:Despite all the rhetoric, I have a friend who had a low speed spill when another cyclist bumped into her, the Paramedic and A & E consultant both said her helmet saved her from catastrophic brain injury. No further proof needed for normal thinking people.


Plenty is needed by anyone who actually thinks about it - because a low speed spill is fundamentally no different from falling over when walking or running, and the rate at which *that* causes catastrophic brain injury is so low as to be ignored.
Additionally there is no obvious mechanism by which a few ounces of primarily expanded polystyrene could possible convert a "catastrophic" brain injury into what I can only guess was a minor concussion at worst.

That's part of the problem "normal thinking" is not to think at all.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Jdsk
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Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by Jdsk »

[XAP]Bob wrote:Additionally there is no obvious mechanism by which a few ounces of primarily expanded polystyrene could possible convert a "catastrophic" brain injury into what I can only guess was a minor concussion at worst.

What follows is not an attempt to go beyond the known evidence and its limitations:

Yes, it's perfectly possible for a typical cycle helmet to reduce the amount of damage done to the brain within the skull on which it sits. That reduction in damage could make a difference to how well the brain works afterwards.

Jonathan
Steady rider
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Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by Steady rider »

https://bmjopensem.bmj.com/content/bmjo ... 6.full.pdf
Taking another look at this recent paper, 28 cases, 20 had previous concussions. Bicycling-related concussions leading to postconcussion syndrome in adults’, details ‘The mean duration of PCS for helmet wearers was 22.9 months, and 16.8 months for patients not wearing a helmet at the time of concussion (p=0.41)’

Previous studies show something like 90%+ who have head impacts make a good recovery. Helmet wearers have more impacts compared to cyclists not wearing, data suggests an impact several times higher.

There is evidence showing a higher accident rate connected with helmet use.

Is the helmet price and quality a distraction from the main focus, does the quality or price have any bearing safety, when all helmets we assume will meet standards.
Jdsk
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Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by Jdsk »

Steady rider wrote:https://bmjopensem.bmj.com/content/bmjosem/6/1/e000746.full.pdf
Taking another look at this recent paper, 28 cases, 20 had previous concussions. Bicycling-related concussions leading to postconcussion syndrome in adults’, details ‘The mean duration of PCS for helmet wearers was 22.9 months, and 16.8 months for patients not wearing a helmet at the time of concussion (p=0.41)’

You've now quoted that twice. What do you think that p value means, please?

Thanks

Jonathan
ClappedOut
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Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by ClappedOut »

Cheap one from Aldi or Lidl and improve from there as funds allow £9.99 or less for a bit of peace of mind- sky the limit

Yes the Dutch don’t bother, my brother flew over a car and the helmet did the job and scraped to hell- he’s no more stupid than prior so I concluded it worked.
Mike Sales
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Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by Mike Sales »

ClappedOut wrote:
Yes the Dutch don’t bother, my brother flew over a car and the helmet did the job and scraped to hell- he’s no more stupid than prior so I concluded it worked.


When I was knocked off and banged my head I was wearing a cotton cap and my head was hardly bruised. I therefore conclude cotton caps protect the head. Or possibly just trade team caps from Festina.
This is as valid an inference as your single instance. That is, not evidence of anything much.
It's the same the whole world over
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pjclinch
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Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by pjclinch »

Jdsk wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:Additionally there is no obvious mechanism by which a few ounces of primarily expanded polystyrene could possible convert a "catastrophic" brain injury into what I can only guess was a minor concussion at worst.

What follows is not an attempt to go beyond the known evidence and its limitations:

Yes, it's perfectly possible for a typical cycle helmet to reduce the amount of damage done to the brain within the skull on which it sits. That reduction in damage could make a difference to how well the brain works afterwards.


It certainly could help because energy can be absorbed, but if it did that at a significant rate then their protective prowess wouldn't be "too modest to capture", and whether the degree to which it does offsets the other uncertainties is, well, uncertain. But it could.
Similarly, such a helmet could make that sort of difference in things like falls down the stairs or auto-collisions, but nobody bothers, because if you show up at A&E having fallen down the stairs or crashed your car the folk picking up the pieces aren't from a culture that goes on and on about how you should always wear helmets on stairs or in cars just in case, because accidents can happen to anyone etc. etc.

From a quick Google, finding https://www.shponline.co.uk/resources/stair-safety-day-25-facts-about-stair-safety/
In the UK there is a fall on stairs every 90 seconds. (Source: BS 5395-1:2010[1]) During 2015 there were 787 deaths in England and Wales caused by a fall on and from steps or stairs. ... More than 100,000 elderly people are treated for injuries after a fall on stairs every year.


Oddly, the fact sheet that comes from doesn't include wearing helmets in its 6 tips for stair safety, despite ~7 times as many deaths every year as cycling manages. Yes, the exposure is higher (more people using stairs), but with so many opportunities to have these accidents, "surely" it's stupid to take the chance? Really it comes down to personal choice based on your gut feelings of how dangerous you think what you're doing is. We've spent the last quarter century telling ourselves that cycling is practically bound to cause life-changing head injuries, and it has come to influence our thinking a lot.

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pjclinch
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Re: Advice on Helmets prices vs quality ????

Post by pjclinch »

Jdsk wrote:
Steady rider wrote:https://bmjopensem.bmj.com/content/bmjosem/6/1/e000746.full.pdf
Taking another look at this recent paper, 28 cases, 20 had previous concussions. Bicycling-related concussions leading to postconcussion syndrome in adults’, details ‘The mean duration of PCS for helmet wearers was 22.9 months, and 16.8 months for patients not wearing a helmet at the time of concussion (p=0.41)’

You've now quoted that twice. What do you think that p value means, please?


I think it quite possibly means nothing much, if the crashes aren't normalised beyond the presence or not of a helmet. I can't think of a way to get that sot of thing past an ethics committee...

Pete.
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