Luck counts for more than a helmet

For all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmet usage will be moved here.
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Mick F
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by Mick F »

ClappedOut wrote:Blimey, that could have ended badly.
That's my point.

Why was I in the position that allowed me to have the chainsaw teeth near my foot?
The fact that there's steel under the toe and upper as well as in the sole, would have prevented me from being hurt.
Excellent bit of safety kit.

But .................. had I been wearing normal wellies or even sandals! :shock: would I have been more careful and less cavalier about it all?

This is the argument about wearing cycling helmets or not wearing cycling helmets .......................... let alone having seat-belts and air-bags in cars.
Mick F. Cornwall
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
Mick F wrote:
ClappedOut wrote:Blimey, that could have ended badly.
That's my point.

Why was I in the position that allowed me to have the chainsaw teeth near my foot?
The fact that there's steel under the toe and upper as well as in the sole, would have prevented me from being hurt.
Excellent bit of safety kit.

But .................. had I been wearing normal wellies or even sandals! :shock: would I have been more careful and less cavalier about it all?

You turn a corner and your life changes....................otherwise you would never venture out your house :P
I wear gloves so that I don't get blisters dry cracked digits and it improves grip some times, digging power tools hand cranking................angle grinders :x
One occasion I had my finger trapped because another shoved some machinery in impatience, if I had not been wearing gloves I might of lost a finger (no the glove did not prevent my finger from any hurt but enabled me to to pull it out quick when I felt the squeeze) not just a permanently damaged/ bad growing nail, same clump who droped a metal box on my head splitting my scalp open :evil:

Mick F wrote:This is the argument about wearing cycling helmets or not wearing cycling helmets .......................... let alone having seat-belts
and air-bags in cars.

So remove ABS - Air bags - And crumple's zones!

WE have had this argument before about taking more care when you feel undressed with gear.
We don't all flinch when we hear a loud noise and run and hide.
Maybe its too many years riding a motorcycle, you are no well better protected on any two wheeled vehicle, are you.
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axel_knutt
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by axel_knutt »

Adjunct Satyr wrote:New to this. Genuinely intrigued... what injuries can wearing one cause?


People who don't wear a helmet feel more vulnerable.
People who feel more vulnerable are motivated to ride more carefully.
People who ride more carefully reduce their risk of an accident.
Risk of a head injury depends on the probability of an accident occurring, and not just the survivability of the impact if it does.

AFAIK there is only one study ever done which includes both the effect of the helmet on impact survivability as well as it's effect on rider behaviour, and that was the American study in the late 1970s. There were two cohorts, in one half of the states of the USA compulsory motorcycle helmet legislation was revoked, the other half retained it. The death rate in the cohort that revoked helmets was lower than the cohort that retained them. Any benefit of impact protection is outweighed by the increase in the risk of having an accident.

You might reasonably ask why in 40 years this study has never been repeated, and why researchers persist in repeating studies that don't ask the right question. My guess is that everyone knows they won't get the answer they want.
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Mike Sales
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by Mike Sales »

Risk cannot be eliminated in this world.
Reward may be pleasure, food, procreation etc.
It is basic to individual autonomy that we make our own decisions, continuously and instantaneously as well as in the longer term, about how to balance risk and reward.

Here, in this forum, we spend a lot of time talking about both of these, and opining about our own decisions on this balance.
When either of these two change, surely we adjust our personal reckoning of where the balance is.
This adjustment is not in only one direction; this would be nonsense.

When we feel more in danger we take steps to reduce the danger to a level we feel happy with.
If we feel safer, we may ride faster down the hill, or use a busier road etc.
We have a tendency to use up the increased "safety".

This is fine and normal so long as we do not endanger others.
Unfortunately when drivers take more risk because they feel safer they do endanger others.
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Jdsk
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote:
Adjunct Satyr wrote:New to this. Genuinely intrigued... what injuries can wearing one cause?

Welcome.

I imagine that you're getting the hang of how this discussion traditionally evolves.

There's quite a lot above about risk compensation.

Fortunately there is a systematic review published in 2019:

"Bicycle helmets and risky behaviour: A systematic review"
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369847818305941

Jonathan
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by Adjunct Satyr »

Thanks Johnathan. Will read this a littler later :)
New to cycling (March 2021) and enjoying every bit so far!
Steady rider
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by Steady rider »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCIr5V31y1E
may be of limited interest. slight error in Jonathan's figures for Victoria.

Vorpal wrote
My conclusion, as someone whose profession is analysing risk:
The benefits imparted by wearing a helmet in an incident are mostly offset by the increased risk of having an incident


Trying to provide a very brief analysis.
Helmet incur more impacts than a bare head,
Robinson 1996 refers to the Wasserman data that detailed the incidence of cyclists hitting their head/helmet during an 18-month period was “significantly higher for helmet wearers (8/40 vs 13/476 - i.e. 20% vs 2.7%, p 0.00001)."

i.e. 8 from 40 =20%, v 13 from 476, 2.7%, 7 higher risk of impact from these figures.

Helmet wearing can increase the accident rate, as examples, The Porter 2016 report in the US detailed that cyclists wearing helmets had more than twice the odds of suffering an injury than cyclists not wearing helmets. Erke and Elvik 2007 examined research from Australia and New Zealand and stated that "There is evidence of increased accident risk per cycling-km for cyclists wearing a helmet. In Australia and New Zealand, the increase is estimated to be around 14 per cent." Clarke and Gillham 2019 concluded
Nevertheless, this study presents evidence that helmet use tends to increase the accident/injury rate per cyclist, potentially outweighing any head protection benefits.


From the above, assuming 1000 cyclist not wearing helmets, assume 100 accidents and 10 head injuries to the part that may be protected by a helmet. Assuming 1000 cyclists wearing helmets, assume between 114 and 200 accidents and between 80 and 140 impacts to helmets, many of these impacts may be minor. How many head injuries would result and what sort of head injuries?

From the above estimates, it could be expected for helmet wearers to claim their helmet had an impact and potentially saved them from injury and they could easily assume a major benefit.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... jury_rates
Last edited by Steady rider on 30 Mar 2021, 8:14pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jdsk
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by Jdsk »

Steady rider wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCIr5V31y1E
may be of limited interest. slight error in Jonathan's figures for Victoria.

What does that refer to, please?

Thanks

Jonathan
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by Steady rider »

Culture & Health Webinar Series 2019 - Safety & Society: Cycle Helmet Debates

Take it up with the moderators.
Jdsk
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by Jdsk »

Steady rider wrote:Culture & Health Webinar Series 2019 - Safety & Society: Cycle Helmet Debates

Take it up with the moderators.

Is that an answer to my question about "slight error in Jonathan's figures for Victoria.".

I don't know what it means... what was my error, please?

Thanks

Jonathan
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by Steady rider »

In his (Jonathan was presenting in the video, assuming not the same Jonathan?) display I think he shows 12 cyclist deaths in 1992, I think 14 was the actual figure. He also fails to relate to overall road deaths, for example in 1989, 158 pedestrian deaths reduced to 90 by 1992. From memory, overall road deaths reduced from 777 in 1989 to 398 in 1992. Bearing in mind cycling reduced during this period.
Jdsk
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by Jdsk »

Ah... not me then.

Jonathan
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by pedalpower2 »

Some have asked what injuries can a helmet cause. Well I suspect that in my friends case when helmet hit the ground the extra friction twisted her head quickly and the rotation snapped the optic nerves causing her blindness. But there is no proof, only my thoughts on probability.
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by hondated »

pedalpower2 wrote:In the 1950s long before helmets, I was involved in a collision with a car and woke up several hours later in hospital. However I suffered no real injury.Many years later a friend of mine was out on a windy day and was knocked off by a guy on a moped. She hit her head on the kerb and despite having a helmet was rendered blind and died a fortnight later. So take your chance, crossed fingers are probably just as helpful.
pedalpower2

Sorry to read about the loss of your friend pp. Back in 1967 giving my mate a lift to work on my motorbike a car pulled out on us from the kerbside resulting in us both being thrown through the air.
I was wearing a Stadium Jet crash helmet and he , legal at that time , wasn't wearing one.
It was me that needed to have stitches in my head and he got away injury free. Go figure.
Having had this experience I never wore a cycle helmet for years but decided in the end to wear one as most other cyclists were. Again go figure.
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Adjunct Satyr wrote:New to this. Genuinely intrigued... what injuries can wearing one cause?

Whatabout the children in your care? Are they expected to wear helmuts when cycling to school? Minusplus? Climbing frames have gaps big enough for a child's head to pass. A helmutted head is bigger, there may have been cases where a child got stuck, hanging by their head, unable to get free, no adult nearby to help, resulting in serious injury or worse
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