Luck counts for more than a helmet

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
Cyril Haearn wrote:
Adjunct Satyr wrote:New to this. Genuinely intrigued... what injuries can wearing one cause?

Whatabout the children in your care? Are they expected to wear helmuts when cycling to school? Minusplus? Climbing frames have gaps big enough for a child's head to pass. A helmutted head is bigger, there may have been cases where a child got stuck, hanging by their head, unable to get free, no adult nearby to help, resulting in serious injury or worse

You are looking for holes aren't you Cyril :)
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pjclinch
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by pjclinch »

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Maybe you can explain to me why some people wear a seatbelt to comply with the law in UK, But then pull the vertical strap off the shoulder even under their arm :?


That would be for them to explain, can't speak for them.

But what it does show you is people will dream up all sorts of rather spurious things when it comes to risk. As Robert Heinlein put it:
“Man is not a rational animal; he is a rationalizing animal.


It is entirely normal for people to go with what their gut feeling tells them they want to do, and maybe retro-fit some reasoning in later .
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Adjunct Satyr
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by Adjunct Satyr »

Cyril Haearn wrote:
Adjunct Satyr wrote:New to this. Genuinely intrigued... what injuries can wearing one cause?

Whatabout the children in your care? Are they expected to wear helmuts when cycling to school? Minusplus? Climbing frames have gaps big enough for a child's head to pass. A helmutted head is bigger, there may have been cases where a child got stuck, hanging by their head, unable to get free, no adult nearby to help, resulting in serious injury or worse


I have two lads, 16 and 12 and I’ve instructed them both to wear helmets, especially whilst they are new to road riding. Not sure of the actual reason, other than it feels safer. I suppose with me, they will not be taking any extra risks for wearing one (argument earlier in the thread) as they are under my instruction.
New to cycling (March 2021) and enjoying every bit so far!
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by Cyril Haearn »

One might take marginal extra risks without thinking. I do hope the young fit lads shall not be using €bikes (€lectric cycles with motors). Just read an article about these. 'One is tempted to go faster. Wear a helmut to reduce the danger thus created' :?

I shall preserve my financial health by NOT buying an €€€bike!

@Natural: good idea, we could join the Naked Bike Ride, bare as you dare. Unless Trumptonshire Constabulary or the bojo regime have chosen to ban it :wink:
Last edited by Cyril Haearn on 1 Apr 2021, 6:08pm, edited 1 time in total.
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fastpedaller
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by fastpedaller »

Adjunct Satyr wrote:I have two lads, 16 and 12 and I’ve instructed them both to wear helmets, especially whilst they are new to road riding. Not sure of the actual reason, other than it feels safer. I suppose with me, they will not be taking any extra risks for wearing one (argument earlier in the thread) as they are under my instruction.


I appreciate your dilemma...... but what if car drivers think "they look safer with those helmets on, I'll just overtake anyway" when there isn't sufficient room for safety?
This is my main reason for not wearing one. Anecdotal 'evidence' 2 of my pals were involved in separate incidents with vehicles within 2 weeks of starting to wear helmets.
Stevek76
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by Stevek76 »

The risk compensation response is partly subconscious. I think it also probably weakens somewhat over time, certainly in my case the conscious element does (from my experiences of wearing, or not, various protective gear when mtbing round the local trails).

In terms of actual injuries that can be caused by helmets, there are a few. Non MIPS (or equivalent) helmets can actually exacerbate rotational forces and there are edge cases where the extra size of the helmet can result in an impact where one would not otherwise have occured. Another problem is helmet misuse, eg attaching cameras and lights with mounts that don't easily detach in the event of a crash.

In terms of road riding I'd suggest what counts the most is how you ride. Not that many collisions are completely unavoidable. The rest generally are, just depends on how much paranoia you're willing to deploy when riding.


Edit: hyperbole removed
Last edited by Stevek76 on 1 Apr 2021, 11:12pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jdsk
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by Jdsk »

There's a recent systematic review for risk compensation:

"Bicycle helmets and risky behaviour: A systematic review"
Esmaeilikiaa et al (2019)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369847818305941?via%3Dihub

What is there for passing distance, please?

Thanks

Jonathan
Stevek76
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by Stevek76 »

Olivier... with a side sprinkling of Radun for extra agenda driven wrongness.

Just skimming through the contents. Most of the studies cited either look at irrelevant issues such as speed or traffic violations, neither of which are a good indicator of 'risky behaviour', sometimes a traffic violation is the safe option, (not to mention the reliance upon self reporting), or they're using seperate groups of people (i.e. those wearing or not wearing helmets) and therefore be so plagued with confounding factors as to be worthless.

The few studies that actually look at the effect of protective equipment on the individual they attempt to dismiss with rather odd statements such as:

Note the authors conclude their study supports the risk compensation hypothesis, although the effect is in the wrong direction (i.e., not wearing a helmet leads to less risky behaviour).


That's not the wrong direction, that's entirely expected. The 'wrong direction' would be not wearing a helmet leading to 'more risky behaviour'. I suspect the reason that 'more risky behaviour' was not observed in the participants who normally did not use a helmet was that on the rather untaxing nature of the 0.4km downhill slope used was not perceived as in any way hazardous so they're not about to suddenly go faster with one on. A helmet makes people feel safer, it doesn't turn them into Chris Froome! :lol:

One of the passing distance studies (walkers) is referenced in that review, the helmet was one of only several factors he looked at with the main purpose rather being the effect of general appearance. If there was a conclusion, it was perhaps just the more 'pro' you look the less average berth drivers gave. Walker's response to the responses referenced in the review is here https://psyarxiv.com/nxw2k
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Jdsk
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by Jdsk »

Stevek76 wrote:
Note the authors conclude their study supports the risk compensation hypothesis, although the effect is in the wrong direction (i.e., not wearing a helmet leads to less risky behaviour).

That's not the wrong direction, that's entirely expected. The 'wrong direction' would be not wearing a helmet leading to 'more risky behaviour'.

Which study was that, please?

Thanks

Jonathan
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by Vorpal »

Jdsk wrote:There's a recent systematic review for risk compensation:

"Bicycle helmets and risky behaviour: A systematic review"
Esmaeilikiaa et al (2019)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369847818305941?via%3Dihub

What is there for passing distance, please?


For passing distance, they only repeat Olivier's dismissal (on grounds of 'overpowered study design') of Walker's study. Some of the studies counted for inclusion which associated wearing helmets with 'safer cycling behaviour' consider things like drinking, or traffic violations. They also included quite a few self-reporting surveys, including some that measure risk taking behaviour on skipping school. :roll:
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Jdsk
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by Jdsk »

Thanks.

I wasn't clear... I wasn't asking what's in that systematic review (on helmets and risk compensation), but what studies (or systematic reviews) are there on passing distance per se. (I know about Walker 2007 and the reanalysis.)

Jonathan
roubaixtuesday
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Stevek76 wrote:A vanishingly small number of collisions are completely unavoidable.


I agree with your post - defensive riding is very important for rider safety.

But I'm genuinely not sure about this.

I've suffered two serious collisions.

First one, a driver skidded straight across a bend and hit me head on.

Second, a driver drove straight into me from a side road from stationary as I cycled past - T boned.

I really don't think there's anything I could have done to avoid either.

I've no idea what proportion is similar, but I doubt it's vanishingly small.
Stevek76
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by Stevek76 »

Jdsk wrote:Which study was that, please?

Thanks

Jonathan


Phillips et al. (2011)


roubaixtuesday wrote:I've no idea what proportion is similar, but I doubt it's vanishingly small.


yes I was being a little hyperbolic. That said, I'm not sure your experience is particularly representative unless you do a very large number of miles? DfT stats have the casualty rate (including 'slight' severity) at one per ~200,000 miles cycled. KSI is more like one in a million miles.
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Jdsk
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by Jdsk »

Stevek76 wrote:
Jdsk wrote:Which study was that, please?

Thanks

Phillips et al. (2011)

Thanks

Jonathan
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Luck counts for more than a helmet

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Adjunct Satyr wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:
Adjunct Satyr wrote:New to this. Genuinely intrigued... what injuries can wearing one cause?

Whatabout the children in your care? Are they expected to wear helmuts when cycling to school? Minusplus? Climbing frames have gaps big enough for a child's head to pass. A helmutted head is bigger, there may have been cases where a child got stuck, hanging by their head, unable to get free, no adult nearby to help, resulting in serious injury or worse


I have two lads, 16 and 12 and I’ve instructed them both to wear helmets, especially
..

I was thinking particularly of the children in your care at school, are they required to wear helmuts if cycling to school? Are they instructed to remove them when climbing trees or playing on climbing frames?

You could spend many happy hours reading about helmuts on these fora, someone did try to start a thread briefly summarising the arguments, but without success, the arguments are a bit complicated :?
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