Liberating

For all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmet usage will be moved here.
mattheus
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Re: Liberating

Post by mattheus »

pjclinch wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 10:48am I think it's fair to say that it's difficult to understand just how much grief one can get for breaking with the main UK helmet culture if you always ride in a lid.

Pete.
Moving a clause might make it clearer:
"
I think it's fair to say that if you always ride in a lid, it's difficult to understand just how much grief one can get for breaking with the main UK helmet culture if you always ride in a lid.
"
Jdsk
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Re: Liberating

Post by Jdsk »

I find it easy to include in outgroup hatred both abuse by people who drive cars directed at people who ride HPVs and abuse by people who ride HPVs directed at people who drive cars.

But what's described above doesn't feel like that. More like the shouter's perception of what safe and what isn't in a situation where safety matters.

(BTW I don't think that I've ever seen it in person, and a lot of people on bikes in Oxford don't wear helmets.)

Jonathan

pjclinch wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 10:48am I'm a qualified Bikeability Scotland instructor. I gave my time away to teach it as a volunteer...
Thankyou.
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Liberating

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
While all this controversy exists about whether to wear a helmet or not.
It's very difficult isn't it as a parent or as a teacher or as a trainer or even a person as part of a group.

if you're a trainer you have to go with what is regarded as correct by your employer.
Parents are stuck in the middle.
And yes I can see that a bald head will always raise eyebrows in this type of environment.

until inconclusive evidence exists on the subject which I think will be a long time coming, we just have to respect an individual's choice.
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Mike Sales
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Re: Liberating

Post by Mike Sales »

Jdsk wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 11:54am I find it easy to include in outgroup hatred both abuse by people who drive cars directed at people who ride HPVs and abuse by people who ride HPVs directed at people who drive cars.

But what's described above doesn't feel like that. More like the shouter's perception of what safe and what isn't in a situation where safety matters.

(BTW I don't think that I've ever seen it in person, and a lot of people on bikes in Oxford don't wear helmets.)

Jonathan

pjclinch wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 10:48am I'm a qualified Bikeability Scotland instructor. I gave my time away to teach it as a volunteer...
Thankyou.
I think shouted helmet advice must be rare.
I brought this unwanted advice up in the context of a club run.
Most of Pj's experience is not abuse either.
I have found that when I have had a chance to have a word with drivers who have endangered me (I usually manage this reasonably amicably) they bring up the subject of helmets. It is almost as if they think that they would not have to take as much care not to harm us if we would only wear a helmet.
Last edited by Mike Sales on 28 Jul 2021, 12:11pm, edited 1 time in total.
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It's the rich what gets the pleasure
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Jdsk
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Re: Liberating

Post by Jdsk »

Mike Sales wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 12:06pmI have found that when I have had a chance to have a word with drivers who have endangered me (I usually manage this reasonably amicably) they bring up the subject of helmets. It is almost as if they think that they would not have to take as much care not to harm us if we would only wear a helmet.
Yes, in that situation I can see how that would be added in, as with the nonexistent tax. And that would fit with an outgroup frame.

Jonathan
mattheus
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Re: Liberating

Post by mattheus »

Mike Sales wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 12:06pm I think shouted helmet advice must be rare.
I brought this unwanted advice up in the context of a club run.
Most of Pj's experience is not abuse either.
- Yes, fortunately IME it is (although it mainly occurs in Oxfordshire, @jdsk ;-) )

- Being overtaken by some oik in lycra+shades yelling "get a *ecking helmet" without stopping for a reasoned discussion is closer to abuse than to friendly advice.
mattheus
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Re: Liberating

Post by mattheus »

NATURAL ANKLING wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 11:55am Hi,
While all this controversy exists about whether to wear a helmet or not.
It's very difficult isn't it as a parent or as a teacher or as a trainer or even a person as part of a group.

if you're a trainer you have to go with what is regarded as correct by your employer.
Parents are stuck in the middle.
And yes I can see that a bald head will always raise eyebrows in this type of environment.

until inconclusive evidence exists on the subject which I think will be a long time coming, we just have to respect an individual's choice.
Perhaps as a parent or trainer the answer is to teach kids that sometimes you have to obey rules that are silly but well-intended. It won't be the last time it happens to them in life!

(plenty of parents will consume alcohol which their kids aren't allowed, plenty of similar examples ...)
Stevek76
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Re: Liberating

Post by Stevek76 »

Suggesting that the rider is being irresponsible (especially those with children), setting a bad example or 'mad'/'insane' largely counts as abuse also in my view.

There are times when it's best to keep one's opinions to oneself. Not blurting them out, uninvited, at random members of the public is one of those.
Jdsk wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 11:54am (BTW I don't think that I've ever seen it in person, and a lot of people on bikes in Oxford don't wear helmets.)
Well that's expected, it's uncommon in Bristol also, helmetless riding is far more normalised in these areas so it raises less comment from the wielrenners. Australia (and NSW specifically) exists on one end of that spectrum, the Netherlands on the other.
NATURAL ANKLING wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 11:55am And yes I can see that a bald head will always raise eyebrows in this type of environment.
I can see it but it still makes little sense given the vast range of other things kids hit their heads doing where zero eyebrow raising would happen.
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pjclinch
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Re: Liberating

Post by pjclinch »

Mike Sales wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 12:06pm
I think shouted helmet advice must be rare.
I never had it until I started riding around with children, but then? Vive la difference!
Most of Pj's experience is not abuse either.
Again, the rules seem to change as soon as you have kids in there. Having someone walk in to the road pointing at you, shouting at you that you are irresponsible in front of dozens of people in a city centre, a clear act of public shaming, counts as abusive in my eyes.

That my daughter got pulled out in her classes at school at about age 7/8 or so and sternly lectured in front of her peers to always wear a helmet on a bike, no questions, is deeply wrong, and as anyone who remembers being in primary school will know, that's the sort of thing that sets off a chain of (small-time, but still deeply unpleasant) haranguing and power games to put the person "in the wrong" down.

If an adult rides without a helmet then they're widely regarded as an idiot, but if they ride without them with children and let their children ride without them too then that is seen as deeply irresponsible and worthy of very public rebuke. Hence the complaints against me that ultimately had me abandon my teaching involvement in Bikeability Scotland. It's not much like fun when the thanks you get is being treated like dirt.
I have found that when I have had a chance to have a word with drivers who have endangered me (I usually manage this reasonably amicably) they bring up the subject of helmets. It is almost as if they think that they would not have to take as much care not to harm us if we would only wear a helmet.
Second hand anecdote, I'm afraid, but I was once told the tale of a rider who was approaching some lights and was quite pleased that the following car was being driven just as it should be, hanging back and giving him time and space.
When he'd stopped at the lights the car came alongside, down came the window, and as well as being told he should have been wearing a helmet he was told why: so it would've been safe enough for the driver to squeeze by!

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
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pjclinch
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Re: Liberating

Post by pjclinch »

NATURAL ANKLING wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 11:55am While all this controversy exists about whether to wear a helmet or not.
It's very difficult isn't it as a parent or as a teacher or as a trainer or even a person as part of a group.

if you're a trainer you have to go with what is regarded as correct by your employer.
Parents are stuck in the middle.
And yes I can see that a bald head will always raise eyebrows in this type of environment.

until inconclusive evidence exists on the subject which I think will be a long time coming, we just have to respect an individual's choice.
If it's inconclusive evidence you want, we have plenty of that already! :wink:

The thing is we do have the mechanisms to deal with things with the evidence we have. If you've tried a public health and safety intervention for well over 20 years and it hasn't had any tangible effect on health and safety, you stop plugging it as important as a general public level intervention. The end.

But, no, we keep on insisting they're important at a general public advice level.
We assume they're important because people keep going on about them.
People keep going on about then because they assume they're important.

It's the perceived importance that makes it a minefield for parents. They want to do what's best for their children, but pervasive cultural values are not a reliable guide to what's best. If that were otherwise it would surely be a good thing to dress one's daughter exclusively in pink and encourage her to want to be a princess...

Pete.
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Jdsk
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Re: Liberating

Post by Jdsk »

NATURAL ANKLING wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 11:55am... until inconclusive evidence exists on the subject which I think will be a long time coming, we just have to respect an individual's choice.
I think that you might mean "conclusive".

I hoped that this thread might stay on what we do with our heads in hot weather.

But, as always, if anyone wants to have a discussion constrained by evidence-based rules of engagement I'd be interested. The track record on this is obviously disastrous but I don't see why the future couldn't be better than the past.

Jonathan
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Liberating

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
Jdsk wrote: 29 Jul 2021, 9:16am
NATURAL ANKLING wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 11:55am... until inconclusive evidence exists on the subject which I think will be a long time coming, we just have to respect an individual's choice.
I think that you might mean "conclusive".

I hoped that this thread might stay on what we do with our heads in hot weather.

But, as always, if anyone wants to have a discussion constrained by evidence-based rules of engagement I'd be interested. The track record on this is obviously disastrous but I don't see why the future couldn't be better than the past.

Jonathan
Thanks for correcting that Jonathan.
Hopefully people will understand I just got it the wrong way round :oops:
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Jdsk
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Re: Liberating

Post by Jdsk »

NATURAL ANKLING wrote: 29 Jul 2021, 9:43am
Jdsk wrote: 29 Jul 2021, 9:16am
NATURAL ANKLING wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 11:55am... until inconclusive evidence exists on the subject which I think will be a long time coming, we just have to respect an individual's choice.
I think that you might mean "conclusive".
Thanks for correcting that Jonathan.
Hopefully people will understand I just got it the wrong way round
... I didn't see any confusion.

: - )

Jonathan
mattheus
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Re: Liberating

Post by mattheus »

Jdsk wrote: 29 Jul 2021, 9:16am ...

But, as always, if anyone wants to have a discussion constrained by evidence-based rules of engagement I'd be interested. The track record on this is obviously disastrous but I don't see why the future couldn't be better than the past.
Hear-hear!
Stevek76
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Re: Liberating

Post by Stevek76 »

Erm well I suspect there's even less evidence on heat & helmets than there is on helmets generally so not really sure what you're looking for.

On the topic of heat, I do stow the MTB helmet (the only place I use one) for climbs in hot weather, and if it's really toasty (as recently) then for anything except genuinely sketchy stuff and tone down what I do elsewhere, eg rolling things I might otherwise jump, risk compensation basically.
pjclinch wrote: 29 Jul 2021, 8:37am If an adult rides without a helmet then they're widely regarded as an idiot, but if they ride without them with children and let their children ride without them too then that is seen as deeply irresponsible and worthy of very public rebuke.
Or if that adult is seen as in some kind of position of authority, or if they happen to get used in promotional photography by cyclinguk or TfL etc. Then they're 'setting a bad example'.
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