Stop Headway

For all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmet usage will be moved here.
reohn2
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Re: Stop Headway

Postby reohn2 » 24 Dec 2010, 8:37am

MikeL wrote:We do not know * where* these bike/ped collisions occurred. I suspect most or all of them were on the pavement. If I am correct, then those of us who always ride on the road represent a risk to the public of near enough to zero to make no practical difference.

The pedestrian fatality rate *may* be an underestimate, depending on how you define causality. For an old person, suffering a broken neck of femur after being knocked down by a bike (easily plausible) could well set in train a sequence of events which leads to chronic debility and eventually death even if many months later. Would this be counted? It would be a source of bias, since injuries caused by motor traffic would be more likely to cause early death because of the greater trauma.


The same could be said of motor vehicle collisions wwith pedestrians, so the two could be self canceling (if that makes sense)in that both catogeries could be higher but by how much is anyones guess.We've no way of knowing if there isn't any stats, though I'd bet it were higher for the motor vehicle category.
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reohn2
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Re: Stop Headway

Postby reohn2 » 24 Dec 2010, 8:51am

Cunobelin wrote:
meic wrote:The figures would probably be a lot different if there was a cyclist equivalent of motorways, where cyclists could do millions of miles safe from any chance of hitting pedestrians.

Also the figures are probably higher for cycles and motorcycles because pedestrians ( the same people as motorists but out of their cars) are not expecting them and dont notice them.


Noise has a lot to do with it

When electric vans were becoming used by some of the larger City Councils the accident rate went up even for their better drivers.

The suggestion is that pedestrians were listening for engines and not hearing them assuming that they were clear to step out ... into the path of the silent electric vehicle

Some vehicles now have noisemakers for this reason.

Are cycles also too quiet?


Or are pedestrians not vigilant enough in the vicinity of traffic, ie; don't look,then listen if its safe to cross?I've experienced a number of pedsestrians not look but just listen and if I weren't alert as to the unpredictability of peds could have collided with them myself.
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meic
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Re: Stop Headway

Postby meic » 24 Dec 2010, 2:09pm

It is much EASIER to prevent the pedestrians from making this mistake by fitting all silent vehicles with a constantly ringing bell than to get the pedestrians to look before walking onto the road.
Yma o Hyd

reohn2
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Re: Stop Headway

Postby reohn2 » 24 Dec 2010, 4:04pm

meic wrote:It is much EASIER to prevent the pedestrians from making this mistake by fitting all silent vehicles with a constantly ringing bell than to get the pedestrians to look before walking onto the road.


So that all cyclists think they're suffering from Tinitus!!!!!!!!! :wink:
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Steady rider
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Re: Stop Headway

Postby Steady rider » 24 Dec 2010, 6:54pm

From Safer Cycling 1995
Passing Pedestrians
If you are out for a ride
Consider the walkers as you pass by their side
Before you pass remender to think
Use bell or brake levers for a warning clink
So have some class
And think to clink before you pass


merry christmas to the helmet chat group

reohn2
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Re: Stop Headway

Postby reohn2 » 24 Dec 2010, 7:34pm

Steady rider wrote:From Safer Cycling 1995
Passing Pedestrians
If you are out for a ride
Consider the walkers as you pass by their side
Before you pass remender to think
Use bell or brake levers for a warning clink
So have some class
And think to clink before you pass


merry christmas to the helmet chat group


Or better still as you approach ask "could squeeze past please" and a "thankyou" as you pass.But its a different matter on the road.
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WorldWideWilby
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Re: Stop Headway

Postby WorldWideWilby » 28 Dec 2010, 10:55pm

I'll keep wearing my helmet. So far the accidents I have had where my helmet protected me have not been reported as the helmet saved me from serious injury.

irc
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Re: Stop Headway

Postby irc » 28 Dec 2010, 11:05pm

WorldWideWilby wrote:I'll keep wearing my helmet. So far the accidents I have had where my helmet protected me have not been reported as the helmet saved me from serious injury.


If you have had several accidents where you have struck your head hard enough to injure a bare head then you are either taking part in activities like road racing or MTBing where most people agree helmets are worthwhile or alternatively you are risk compensation in action. I don't wear a helmet and I've never injured my head.
No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?

drossall
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Re: Stop Headway

Postby drossall » 28 Dec 2010, 11:12pm

More to the point, you're single-handedly having enough accidents for several small counties if the national stats are to be believed.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Stop Headway

Postby [XAP]Bob » 29 Dec 2010, 10:43am

irc wrote:
WorldWideWilby wrote:I'll keep wearing my helmet. So far the accidents I have had where my helmet protected me have not been reported as the helmet saved me from serious injury.


If you have had several accidents where you have struck your head hard enough to injure a bare head then you are either taking part in activities like road racing or MTBing where most people agree helmets are worthwhile or alternatively you are risk compensation in action. I don't wear a helmet and I've never injured my head.


Looking at the avatar I'd say road racing...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

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WorldWideWilby
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Re: Stop Headway

Postby WorldWideWilby » 29 Dec 2010, 5:46pm

The main accident was on a main road approaching horses, not in a race just out to get some milk. I hit the back of a horse with my head, then bounced onto the floor and hit the back of my head on the road.
Fortunately I was wearing the helmet, you must be very lucky not to have had an accident.
I am not against people not wearing helmets as the law is still providing that freedom, but to advocate them being safer than not wearing them is wrong.
e.g. take an egg and drop it on the floor, wrap it in wool do the same, get my point.
I have been known to take my helmet off whilst on climbs in hot countries, but generally I prefer to wear one, it been so long that I feel more comfortable with it.
Another accident was where I took my bike off the road to avoid a shunt from behind. This time it was on my commute to work.
An accident can happen anytime.

snibgo
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Re: Stop Headway

Postby snibgo » 29 Dec 2010, 6:43pm

WorldWideWilby wrote:I hit the back of a horse with my head ...

I'm afraid I had to laugh at that. I'm sorry, and I don't mean to diminish the experience which must have been awful, but I have to ask ... how did you come to hit a horse with your head?

WorldWideWilby wrote:... but to advocate them being safer than not wearing them is wrong.

What you say may be right, but I wonder if you meant what you said.

irc
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Re: Stop Headway

Postby irc » 29 Dec 2010, 11:51pm

WorldWideWilby wrote:The main accident was on a main road approaching horses, not in a race just out to get some milk. I hit the back of a horse with my head, then bounced onto the floor and hit the back of my head on the road.
Fortunately I was wearing the helmet, you must be very lucky not to have had an accident.


Just not many horses about these parts I suppose? But how can you hit something as large as a horse? Surely the fact they are large and unpredictable means everyone gives them huge passing room when they are met on the road?
No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Stop Headway

Postby [XAP]Bob » 30 Dec 2010, 3:27pm

But tightly tie your egg to an anvil and drop that...

A (normal) bike helmet is designed to protect against a flat (crown) impact at speeds approximating that of a child falling over when stationary..

They will do nothing useful* if impacted at speed, as they will split, not crush.

They may also snag and impart massive rotational loads, but will increase rotational forces even if not snagged.

And that all assumes they are fitted properly in the first place.

A colleague of mine (10-15 years ago) was coming back from some downhilling (appropriate helmet recommended) and clipped the back corner of a parked car (lapse in concentration). As he headbutted the roof the (fitted) helmet was pushed up, he lost most of his teeth and broke his facial bones in several places. He then commuted to work with a full face helmet for several months before going back to (I believe, on a normal road journey) bare headed.

Bob

* Useful in terms of serious injury - they'll still help with abrasions etc, and so keep you pretty.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

downfader
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Re: Stop Headway

Postby downfader » 30 Dec 2010, 5:13pm

WorldWideWilby wrote:The main accident was on a main road approaching horses, not in a race just out to get some milk. I hit the back of a horse with my head, then bounced onto the floor and hit the back of my head on the road.
Fortunately I was wearing the helmet, you must be very lucky not to have had an accident.
I am not against people not wearing helmets as the law is still providing that freedom, but to advocate them being safer than not wearing them is wrong.
e.g. take an egg and drop it on the floor, wrap it in wool do the same, get my point.
I have been known to take my helmet off whilst on climbs in hot countries, but generally I prefer to wear one, it been so long that I feel more comfortable with it.
Another accident was where I took my bike off the road to avoid a shunt from behind. This time it was on my commute to work.
An accident can happen anytime.


The trouble is, and I'm often slagged off elsewhere for saying this, is that it is not for the uneducated to make assertations and implications. There are so many different groups of people, cyclists included, who are trying to force us into a corner: wear a helmet, all look the same by wearing a yellow jacket, demonstrate in illogical ways that we all act the same (red light abuse, pavements), etc.

I see a trend in behaviour where many people, who do not understand much about helmets themselves, then in a knee jerk way start to campaign that "all cyclists should just wear a helmet" instead of actually looking at the behavioural actions that lead to the incident:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xaxFKU8Z20 If you read the comments and blurbs you find that he failed to maintain his vehicle.

I have started a new video playlist for youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/downfader2# ... 8F4C520094
I hope to add similar videos of interest, or stat based info others have made and collate it.