I don't care about "for or against"

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
drossall
Posts: 4570
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 10:01pm
Location: North Hertfordshire

Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby drossall » 12 Mar 2011, 10:15pm

Mick F wrote:I wear one when I go on "rides". I hurtle down hills and generally have a good time, but if I'm pootling to the village, I don't wear one and neither do I wear any other cycling gear.

Understandable, but actually quite odd. Helmets are designed for impacts around 12mph. One might argue that they have a chance of helping on the pootle and not much on the "ride", so you should do it the other way around*. :twisted:

* Of course, as I have pointed out before, the vertical speed in a fall will be the same whether you are pootling or not, but it's still the case that it makes more sense to use a helmet the slower you are going...

byegad
Posts: 3232
Joined: 3 Sep 2007, 9:44am

Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby byegad » 13 Mar 2011, 12:43pm

I usually steer well clear of helmet threads. I ride recumbent trikes and the likelihood of my falling off is as near zero as makes no matter.

I'm joining in because I'm getting a bit fed up with threads that include the statement 'I fell/got knocked off my bike and smacked my helmet in to the ground. Thank goodness I was wearing it.'

The writers, no doubt believe the helmet saved them from injury.

But maybe, just maybe, they should consider an other possibility.

I've fallen off an upright bike on ice and hit my hip elbow and forearm with similar injuries as those pictured in the OP. What I didn't do is hit my head. I wasn't wearing a helmet. I also learnt to ride a recumbent bike while unknowingly suffering from the start of a vertigo condition. Not once did I hit my unhelmeted head out of the many falls I took, neither did it occur to me to wear a helmet.

The fall on ice happened so quickly anything I did to save myself was done in less than a blink of the eye. I don't remember doing anything at all. To me one second I was riding out of a junction and the next I was sliding down the road.
Even so while I will never know if I would have hit the ground with a helmet I don't start threads saying 'Don't wear a helmet it will save a bang on the head!'

It is possible that some of these posters would have fallen and like me got up with no head impact if they had not worn the helmet. It is also possible that some would have suffered serious injury without the helmet. What is certain is that the statistics available do not show a marked decrease in head injury with helmet use, other than commensurate with reduced cycle use, and do show a marked reduction in cycling numbers with helmet compulsion. I do wish helmet enthusiasts would take that last point on board. I'll restate it. As far as I know there is no country which imposed helmet use where cycling rates did not fall. There is I believe one exception and that is where helmet laws were never enforced and largely ignored. There cycling rates hardly changed.

Rant over. I've broken the promise I made to myself not to join another helmet thread. I remake the promise and will try to do better and stay away longer than last time.
"I thought of that while riding my bike." -Albert Einstein, on the Theory of Relativity

2007 ICE QNT
2008 Hase Kettwiesel AL27
2011 Catrike Trail
1951 engine

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 46336
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby Mick F » 13 Mar 2011, 12:59pm

drossall wrote:Of course, as I have pointed out before, the vertical speed in a fall will be the same whether you are pootling or not, but it's still the case that it makes more sense to use a helmet the slower you are going.

12mph?
That's my overall average speed!

However, as we already know, there are statistics and statistics, and then we have designs and designs.

If I were to bang my head - something I've never done so far - I'd rather have a helmet on than not. I'm more likely to have an off whilst moving fast than moving slow. After my spectacular off a couple of years ago, I was cut, bruised and grazed all down one side of my body. I ached and was sore for weeks, but if there was one part of my body that didn't come in contact with the road, it was my head. Not even close, and not a scratch on my helmet. I ruined mitts, shorts and top, and scratched my LH shoe, but helmet and head were perfectly fine.

That's my rationale, but I could be convinced either way about this. Common sense says a helmet is better than no helmet, but common sense isn't always right when analysed.
Mick F. Cornwall

The Mechanic
Posts: 1922
Joined: 23 Jul 2010, 1:38pm
Location: Scotland

Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby The Mechanic » 21 Jul 2014, 4:19pm

The last time I fell off my bike I was going no speed at all as the ground was covered in ice. That did not stop the bike from sliding under me and my head banging off the road so hard I saw stars for a couple of minutes. I was wearing a helmet and do not want to think of what the outcome might have been if I had not been wearing one. I have fallen off before but I have never hit my head before but know people who have with dire consequences (fatal in two cases). It is my choice to wear a helmet but I fully respect the right of other people make their own mind up.
Cancer changes your outlook on life. Change yours before it changes you.

User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 3750
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby pjclinch » 21 Jul 2014, 5:05pm

The Mechanic wrote:The last time I fell off my bike I was going no speed at all as the ground was covered in ice. That did not stop the bike from sliding under me and my head banging off the road so hard I saw stars for a couple of minutes. I was wearing a helmet and do not want to think of what the outcome might have been if I had not been wearing one.


judging from the vast majority of cases, you'd have been seeing stars for a bit longer, had a worse headache, and probably an uncomfortable bump for a day or two. And that's it.

If this were not so then the population of the country would be very severely depleted by the number of people involved in similar impacts by way of trips, slips and falls.

That's not to say it' wasn't worth you wearing one, but a bit of perspective on the likely consequences is needed, and judging from the number of cyclists who seem to assume that a split helmet would have meant a split skull, or that they're particularly likely to be killed by head injuries falling from bikes this perspective is widely lacking in the UK. The Dutch fall off plenty in the sort of accident you had, yet they're not clamouring for helmets.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...

User avatar
Si
Moderator
Posts: 15019
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 7:37pm

Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby Si » 21 Jul 2014, 5:10pm

The Mechanic wrote:The last time I fell off my bike I was going no speed at all as the ground was covered in ice. That did not stop the bike from sliding under me and my head banging off the road so hard I saw stars for a couple of minutes. I was wearing a helmet and do not want to think of what the outcome might have been if I had not been wearing one.


Funnily enough I have done something very similar over the last two years.
Differences are that last year I wasn't wearing a helmet but the outcome was the same.
Year before I wasn't wearing a helmet, neither was I on a bike but the outcome was the same.

Now, when on a bike in the ice, if I don't have my ice tyres on I do tend to wear a helmet as, although I doubt it would save my life, I do believe that it could prevent a bit of pain (note: I say believe, I have no proof one way or the other).

But should I also wear one while walking if it's icy?

Steady rider
Posts: 2169
Joined: 4 Jan 2009, 4:31pm

Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby Steady rider » 21 Jul 2014, 5:22pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Atk ... tritionist)

Death[edit]
On April 8, 2003, at age 72, a day after a major snowstorm in New York, Atkins slipped on an icy pavement, suffering severe head trauma.
so should all 70+ people walking around on an icy day be forced to don one?

User avatar
NATURAL ANKLING
Posts: 10568
Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
Location: English Riviera

Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 21 Jul 2014, 5:26pm

Hi,
snibgo wrote:I think the preoccuption with helmets is fairly modern. I started cycling as a kid in the 1960s. None of us wore one, and IIRC no one ever said we should.


Yes but there were no cars in the sixtys, In my road there were about 55 houses, my dad owned a Lagonda, his factory mate had a similar Armstong Sidney etc and my mates dad a sales man had a Ford anglia :?
That was it for the whole road............... you could still self inflick an injury but it will now normally come from a car collision.
I dont fear self inflicted just others abuse.

Edited - Blimey this is an old thread :oops:
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

Bicycler
Posts: 3400
Joined: 4 Dec 2013, 3:33pm

Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby Bicycler » 21 Jul 2014, 5:41pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Yes but there were no cars in the sixtys, In my road there were about 55 houses, my dad owned a Lagonda, his factory mate had a similar Armstong Sidney etc and my mates dad a sales man had a Ford anglia :?
That was it for the whole road............... you could still self inflick an injury but it will now normally come from a car collision.
I dont fear self inflicted just others abuse.

If that is a justification for helmet wearing it is a justification for wearing a kind of helmet designed for crashes involving motor vehicles rather than one designed for simple falls from slow moving cycles

MartinC
Posts: 1837
Joined: 10 May 2007, 6:31pm
Location: Bredon

Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby MartinC » 21 Jul 2014, 6:07pm

The Mechanic wrote:It is my choice to wear a helmet but I fully respect the right of other people make their own mind up.


So you're against compulsion.

User avatar
NATURAL ANKLING
Posts: 10568
Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
Location: English Riviera

Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 21 Jul 2014, 9:15pm

Hi,
I FIRST wore a helmet in the first Torbay Triathalon, you had to as that was the rules.

Then like everyone else a helmet was just fasion.

Now I wear a helmet as the peak keeps flys off my face, gives some weather protection, and the peak keeps sun out of my eyes, I also hope that it gives some protection in a fall or collision.

I think the jury is still out, but I wish that the " If a car driver sees one wearing a helmet their speed is different from a child rider or even a helmetless rider"
I really hate that, but even with out a helmet I think I would be treated how and where I position myself in the road, not wether I wear a helmet or not.

FORGET cyclist safety training, its the attitude of the motorised road users that needs curbing and fining,
I thought that using a car as a weapon like directing at a vunerable cyclist reving enging and speeding and swerving towards them would be using it as a weapon :?:
But I suppose unless contact is made then there's no crime........... :?:

Edited for bad grammar :)
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

User avatar
RickH
Posts: 4496
Joined: 5 Mar 2012, 6:39pm
Location: Horwich, Lancs.

Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby RickH » 22 Jul 2014, 12:25am

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:FORGET cyclist safety training, its the attitude of the motorised road users that needs curbing and fining

I would have thought that cycle training should be encouraged (compulsory even) so that those who get behind the wheel of a motor vehicle will have some appreciation of what it is like to be a cyclist. And the more cyclists there are as well, as they gain more confidence to face riding on the road, the better - or will we than start complaining that there are too many bikes & you can't get anywhere at a decent speed! :?

Rick.

fluffybunnyuk
Posts: 450
Joined: 1 Sep 2013, 10:58pm
Contact:

Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby fluffybunnyuk » 23 Jul 2014, 3:45pm

Just around Christmas, I came down a 10 metre long slope in the road, for a tight right hand bend on a road that has a wierd camber meaning its hard to turn safely onto it at any speed. Anyway i leaned over to take the corner...not realising with panniers and marathons in the wet this isnt the brightest idea...and promptly the bike went sideways and sliding horizontally along the road towards a parked car it was surreal.
Time slowed down, I remember thinking this isnt good i need to stop sliding. I even noticed i hadnt changed position my body was still in the same position i use for vertical cycling as opposed to the horizontal kind i was experiencing. Yet bizarrely my legs were still pedalling :mrgreen: I remember clearly noticing my head skimming over the ground but not touching (mostly cos my arm from elbow to shoulder was), had I been wearing a helmet Itd most likely have been bouncing along the poor excuse for tarmac we have round here.

Did it make me want to wear a helmet? No
Did it make me take great care everytime on that corner? Yes,yes,yes

coshgirl
Posts: 24
Joined: 9 Jun 2009, 3:26pm

Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby coshgirl » 23 Jul 2014, 4:34pm

byegad wrote:I'm joining in because I'm getting a bit fed up with threads that include the statement 'I fell/got knocked off my bike and smacked my helmet in to the ground. Thank goodness I was wearing it.'

The writers, no doubt believe the helmet saved them from injury.
But maybe, just maybe, they should consider an other possibility.
This a thousand times, I have NEVER hit my head when falling from my bike and have NEVER worn a helmet. Are the two connected? I believe so, the simple laws of physics (which seem to be beyond the understanding of helmet enthusiasts) means that you are far MORE likely to hit your head when wearing an object that makes your head 1) bigger and 2) heavier.

User avatar
brother nathaneil
Posts: 144
Joined: 7 Apr 2010, 1:07pm
Location: Bicester, Oxon
Contact:

Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby brother nathaneil » 17 Sep 2014, 11:43pm

I seriously can't believe this thread has been dug up:
By the way, I still wear a helmet... and I still DON'T want to be told that I have too.
Success is a journey, not a destination. The doing is often more important than the outcome ~ Arthur Ashe

http://www.5blokes-end2end.weebly.com