I don't care about "for or against"

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
Steady rider
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Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby Steady rider » 26 Oct 2010, 8:15pm

A picture of the cover may have been useful to see, was a step/lip the cause of the slip? or was being wet and turning or all three. In the wet a wider turn would be advised.

tyres could have a part to play, size? if 35C they could probably ride over things better than 19 mm size.

I would consider all options. bike, pedals, tryes, tow clips etc. slower speed when turning, larger tryes, and being able to get the feet free quickly. not exciting stuff but better than falling off.

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brother nathaneil
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Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby brother nathaneil » 27 Oct 2010, 2:00pm

I trust my tyres (25mm) on wet tarmac and I normally don't lean when crossing covers or lines but this time I did. This time it reminded me why I shouldn't.

As I said in the OP it's completely my fault due to loss of concentration etc. I'd had cycled 35 miles and my mind was wondering, ironically because one of my mates had just had a near miss coming into the same town. :roll:

For more info take a look at http://www.5blokes-end2end.weebly.com then click on the blog (top right). The blog about the off is "Pigeons, pain and practice what you preach". There's also a picture of the drain cover.... yes, well concealed isn't it!!!!! :oops:

The reason for the tyre slipping was that the cover had that marvelous "herringbone" or "dogtooth" type of pattern and it was wet.

The reason for the off was ME.
Success is a journey, not a destination. The doing is often more important than the outcome ~ Arthur Ashe

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby [XAP]Bob » 27 Oct 2010, 2:58pm

Really subtle drain cover than one.

Oops.

You mending OK?
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

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brother nathaneil
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Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby brother nathaneil » 27 Oct 2010, 3:10pm

[XAP]Bob wrote:Really subtle drain cover than one


Yeah, I know. :oops:

Thanks for asking, I'm still aching between shoulder blades and my shoulder isn’t too manoeuvrable. Oh, the hip bruising looks truly impressive now that the greens are coming though! I've got a 50 mile on the road on Saturday and a 30 mile off-road on Sunday so I'm hoping all will be well (well enough at least).
Success is a journey, not a destination. The doing is often more important than the outcome ~ Arthur Ashe

http://www.5blokes-end2end.weebly.com

mark a.
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Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby mark a. » 27 Oct 2010, 3:30pm

What's going on? A helmet thread that hasn't degenerated into the usual slanging matches? Preposterous!

Glad you're ok. Will you be replacing the helmet? In theory if you've hit the helmet it could be damaged internally. However, I probably would have gone through tens of helmets by now if I replaced it every time it had a knock (mostly through dropping it on the floor, not through multiple offs).

snibgo
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Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby snibgo » 27 Oct 2010, 4:07pm

My sympathies. Get well soon.

Looking at the photo, I think it's worth reporting your off to the local councils, because it's a daft place to put a drain cover. Wet metal has less friction than wet tarmac, and it's at a junction so a cyclist will be looking out for traffic.

I'm not suggesting you try for compensation, merely that you point out the problem. If highwaymen aren't told about such issues, they'll never know.

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brother nathaneil
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Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby brother nathaneil » 27 Oct 2010, 5:08pm

mark a. wrote:What's going on? A helmet thread that hasn't degenerated into the usual slanging matches? Preposterous!

I was aware of not "preaching" in my OP and indeed subsequent posts. I figured if I keep it civil, others might do the same, so far so good. Forums are built on opinion but it’s courtesy that stops them failing as far as I'm concerned.

mark a. wrote:Will you be replacing the helmet?

Nope... I'm never falling off again :wink:

snibgo wrote:I think it's worth reporting your off to the local councils, because it's a daft place to put a drain cover.

I did wonder about this... If I don't report it, nothing changes. If I do report it, will the council close the road to cyclist as it's easier than dealing with the cover?
In all honesty, yes it's in a potentially hazardous place, but no getting away from it... it was my fault. Oh hang on, did someone mention "claim"? :lol:
Success is a journey, not a destination. The doing is often more important than the outcome ~ Arthur Ashe

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Steady rider
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Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby Steady rider » 27 Oct 2010, 9:24pm

quite a bad fall, I took about 4+ weeks to recover from somewhat similar injuries.

Thanks for the extra information.
The cover is probably near to the worst possible position, on a corner, as a cyclist would be leaning, slightly down hill. In cold weather the cover could have ice, making it very dangerous for turning the corner.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?rlz=1T4GG ... =en&tab=wl

The coefficient of friction for solids on rubber is listed as 1-4
Roughly speaking the coefficient of friction can reduce to about 20% if wet, compared to dry.
Possibly about 0.2 for CoF in the wet.

The brake material used on car brakes, rubbing on steel drums, would be quite high for friction, if the cover was coated in brake material this may help (health issues). Alternatives may be worth trying to find.

Recommend reposition cover away from junction or off road.

Helmets may double the chance of making contact compared to a bare head. 25mm tyres possibly about 15mm contact width, 35mm tyres possibly about 25 mm contact width. Research on both aspects could be helpful.

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Phil_Lee
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Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby Phil_Lee » 27 Oct 2010, 10:57pm

Steady rider wrote:quite a bad fall, I took about 4+ weeks to recover from somewhat similar injuries.

Thanks for the extra information.
The cover is probably near to the worst possible position, on a corner, as a cyclist would be leaning, slightly down hill. In cold weather the cover could have ice, making it very dangerous for turning the corner.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?rlz=1T4GG ... =en&tab=wl

The coefficient of friction for solids on rubber is listed as 1-4
Roughly speaking the coefficient of friction can reduce to about 20% if wet, compared to dry.
Possibly about 0.2 for CoF in the wet.

The brake material used on car brakes, rubbing on steel drums, would be quite high for friction, if the cover was coated in brake material this may help (health issues). Alternatives may be worth trying to find.

Some utility companies and councils have used manhole covers which just have a metal rim, with the top surfaced in the same material as the surrounding road.
I have never heard a convincing argument as to why this should not be mandatory for all manhole covers on roadways.
Steady rider wrote:Recommend reposition cover away from junction or off road.

Difficult, as the manhole is usually there because whatever it services branches at the same place the road does.
Steady rider wrote:
Helmets may double the chance of making contact compared to a bare head. 25mm tyres possibly about 15mm contact width, 35mm tyres possibly about 25 mm contact width. Research on both aspects could be helpful.


I once knocked myself out because I was wearing a helmet (building site hard-hat).
I'd walked around the truck I drove hundreds of times, but when I had a delivery on a building site they made me wear a hard-hat.
As a result, I walked into the tailgate that I normally walked underneath.
It also gave me a very sore neck - these days I'd probably have enjoyed a nice ride to the local hospital strapped to a spinal board.
In those days it was just "have a cuppa and if you can still stand up and walk around, it's back to work".

Steady rider
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Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby Steady rider » 28 Oct 2010, 10:05am

good info Phil

I also noticed I was hitting my work helmet on site, inspecting piping.

The woodpecker has the best results for hitting their head, they can make an hole in a tree, but their technique is very good, they move their head in a straight line, avoiding rotation and reducing the risk of brain damage, this is not an easy task. Its only a guide to consider.

I subscribe to this sort of view, avoid impacts by not wearing a helmet, avoid rotation - smaller radius for torque and avoid accidents if possible, eg

1
Erke and Elvik (Norwegian researchers) 2007 stated: "There is evidence of increased accident risk per cycling-km for cyclists wearing a helmet. In Australia and New Zealand, the increase is estimated to be around 14 per cent."

2
Robinson 1996 report, Table 2 shows data for children in NSW. The equivalent number of injuries for pre law level of number of cyclists increased from 1310 (384 head + 926 other injuries) in 1991 to 2083 (488 head + 1595 other injuries) in 1993. For NSW the helmet laws reduced children’s safety. The increased injury rate was 59%, from 1310 to 2083.

But cyclist6 do fall off and helmeted will report hitting their helmets quite frequently.
100 falls for non wearers, say 10 head impacts,
114 falls for helmeted, 23 impacts perhaps
23 - 10 comparison, higher rotational risk
Figures just a guide, some reports suggest fewer than 10% head impact level, could be 6-10 compared to 20-30 range for helmeted. One day precise figures may be available.

Provided people have choice, its up to them, only when it is forced onto people, then it become an issue.

worrywort
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Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby worrywort » 11 Mar 2011, 7:16am

Good Morning readers.
I'm writing this having just headbutted the kerb, The edge was at eye level. I don't religiously wear a helmet, this morning i was.
Grazed knee and bruised ego because someone saw me is all i got.

My foot got caught in the toe clip, down i went.
Last year, My company supplied breathable waterproof canary yellow jackets to us. I stopped wearing it whilst on my bike because of the noticable increase in car drivers bad behaviour. (Add clever latin quote here).

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Mick F
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Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby Mick F » 11 Mar 2011, 10:47am

I wear one, generally, but not always. It depends on what I'm doing.

I wear one because most - if not all - of my body can take a bump/scrape/injury and recover, but a head can suffer one heck of a lot of damage. Heads don't heal very well. Bike helmets aren't the best protection by a long chalk, a motorcycle helmet would be better but impossible to cycling with.

I wear one when I go on "rides". I hurtle down hills and generally have a good time, but if I'm pootling to the village, I don't wear one and neither do I wear any other cycling gear.
Mick F. Cornwall

700c
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Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby 700c » 11 Mar 2011, 11:58am

My cousin was wearing a helmet and is now paralysed from the neck down, after being in a collision. The helmet caught on {something} and wrenched the neck.

Had he not been wearing a helmet, he would not now be paralysed, so says the specialist. Though of course, he may have had different injuries at the time.

So, for each person who has a tale about how a helmet helped, there is another who can say how a helmet made things worse.

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brother nathaneil
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Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby brother nathaneil » 11 Mar 2011, 1:19pm

700c wrote:So, for each person who has a tale about how a helmet helped, there is another who can say how a helmet made things worse.


That is why it should be a personal choice. I choose to wear one but I have no problem with those that choose not to.
Success is a journey, not a destination. The doing is often more important than the outcome ~ Arthur Ashe

http://www.5blokes-end2end.weebly.com

Steady rider
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Re: I don't care about "for or against"

Postby Steady rider » 11 Mar 2011, 3:07pm

Unfortunately the data does show helmets increase neck injuries, 36% is the figure I recall.

i think the data shows that hair has a coefficient of friction of about 0.15, skin about 0.3 at a guess, helmets about 0.4 - 0.5 can be obtained from impacts.

Neck injuries are relatively low in number but can be extremly serious.

precise references for all the technical aspects can be found but it takes up time.